One of the Four Cardinals Dies before the Dubia are Answered

Discussion in 'In Memoriam' started by Jarg, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    Cardinal Joachim Meisner, one of the four ‘dubia’ cardinals, has died aged 83

    Senior German cardinal and former Archbishop of Cologne Cardinal Joachim Meisner has died at the age of 83.

    Cardinal Meisner served as Archbishop of Cologne for 25 years. A spokesman for the archdiocese said he died on Wednesday morning while on vacation in Bad Füssing.

    The cardinal was one of four – along with Cardinals Carlo Caffarra, Walter Brandmüller and Raymond Leo Burke – who presented the ‘dubia’ to Pope Francis asking him to clear up controversies surrounding Amoris Laetitia.

    Last month, it was revealed the four cardinals had subsequently sought an audience with the Pope after he failed to answer their questions, but again did not receive a response.


    Let's pray for his soul, and now that he knows the answer to the dubia, let's pray to Joachim Meisner for the pope and all the cardinals so that through his intercession, and that Our Mother and all the saints, "the Holy Spirit touches their heart and enlightens their consciences." (this is a prayer that Padre Pio used to do for high prelates of the Church).
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  2. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    This other article by Edward Pentin has a link to the 2005 conclave, when Cardinal Meisner oppose the lobbying against Ratzinger of the so called St. Gallen Group, led by Card. Danieels.

    Cardinal Joachim Meisner Dies at 83
    The former Archbishop of Cologne, one of the four cardinals to send questions about Amoris Laetitia to Pope Francis, died peacefully in his sleep.

    Edward Pentin
    Cardinal Joachim Meisner, the archbishop emeritus of Cologne who was a strong defender of the Church’s doctrine and orthodoxy, has died at the age of 83.

    The German cardinal died “peacefully” after falling asleep while on vacation in Bad Füssing, Cologne’s Domradio reported on Wednesday, citing the archdiocese.

    Cardinal Rainer Woelki of Cologne said he fell asleep at his bedside after having prepared to celebrate Mass and with his breviary in hand.

    Born in Breslau in what was then Germany but now known as Wrocław in Poland, Cardinal Meisner led Germany’s largest diocese for 25 years from 1989 to 2014. He was considered for many years to be one of the country’s most influential bishops who had a close relationship with Pope St. John Paul II, and especially with Benedict XVI.

    The cardinal made strong interventions to uphold faith and morals, in particular against abortion and assisted suicide, and was an outspoken critic of secularism.

    “Wherever culture is separated from the worship of God,” he once said, “cult atrophies in ritualism and culture becomes degenerate.”

    Last September, he put his name to the dubia, a series of 5 questions to the Holy Father asking him to clarify contentious passages in his apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia that have been subject to varying interpretations. The Pope has yet to respond to the dubia, or to grant the other cardinals — Walter Brandmüller, Carlo Caffarra and Raymond Burke — an audience.

    In comments to the Register, Cardinal Burke said in tribute to the German cardinal that it had been “a great gift to me to know Cardinal Joachim Meisner over the past years.

    “He has inspired me deeply by his profound love of Christ and of His Mystical Body, the Church,” Cardinal Burke said. “He spared no effort in showing that love clearly and courageously in practice. May he be granted the reward of the good and faithful servant. May he rest in peace.”

    During the 2005 conclave, Cardinal Meisner led resistance against the so-called St. Gallen group of churchmen who were lobbying against the election of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
  3. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    I pray this for Cardinal Meisner too.
    Blizzard, HeavenlyHosts, AED and 2 others like this.
  4. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    RIP Cardinal Meisner and I trust you are now a member of The MOG Eternal Prayer Committee!
    I also hope you did not die suspiciously! :(

  5. Mario

    Mario Powers

    :LOL::ROFLMAO::LOL:! Amen!

    Jesus, we trust in You!
  6. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    God bless Cardinal Meisner, I think it is absolutely disgusting that PF did not have the humility or compassion to answer him. I am sure he is getting his answer now. God bless him!
  7. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    Cardinal Schonborn has answer the dubia at a conference in Ireland:

    “Can the divorced and remarried who are still engaged in a sexual relationship receive absolution and communion without a change of life?”

    And Cardinal Schönborn — chosen for the job of explaining the exhortation by the pope himself — says that the answer to this question is yes.

    July 13, 2017
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  8. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    For those who wish to decide for themselves what Cardinal Schonborn had to say in Ireland, look at the link below.
    Mario likes this.
  9. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I don't care what a Cardinal, Bishop or Priest say's about AL. We have the authoritative encyclical from a saint, Pope John Paul II whom has declared it to be impossible for the divorced and remarried in adultery and those living in fornication and those living in homosexual relationships to receive communion. No partial truth or half truth can change what the true magisterium has already clearly defined.
  10. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    We know you don't care, Fatima, but I think there will be a lot of people who would like to read what the editor of the Catholic Catechism has to say on the matter.
  11. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Oh David, right or wrong , you are enjoying argument for it's own sake too much !! Step back! But bless you, when I was younger I was just the same
  12. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This is casuistry, davidtlig.
    You are sweeping aside the fact that in answer to the first dubium, Cardinal Schonborn replied, "Yes".

    And the first dubium is:

    It is asked whether, following the affirmations of Amoris Laetitia (300-305), it has now become possible to grant absolution in the sacrament of penance and thus to admit to holy Communion a person who, while bound by a valid marital bond, lives together with a different person more uxorio without fulfilling the conditions provided for by Familiaris Consortio, 84, and subsequently reaffirmed by Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, 34, and Sacramentum Caritatis, 29. Can the expression “in certain cases” found in Note 351 (305) of the exhortation Amoris Laetitia be applied to divorced persons who are in a new union and who continue to live more uxorious?

  13. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

  14. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    He gives me the creeps. A successor of the Apostles in the tradition of Judas.
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  15. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    I know it's hard to but I would not attack him personally, he is a cardinal after all. We always need to keep in mind the difference between criticizing what other say or do and leave out judging who they are. He is the editor of our Cathecism, belief it or not, though under Ratzinger of course. Maybe he knows too much - many learned priest theologians from the 60s on lost their faith because they tried too hard to reconcile the faith with the world we live in, and that leads to intellectual schizophrenia.

    Let's pray today for this Cardinal so the Holy Spirit gives him a steadfast heart.
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  16. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Don't attack him personally is all well and good if you are willing to ignore his "look at my gentility and merciful concern for the faithful" act while he sucks Catholics into believing that reducing the Eucharist to something similar to an aspirin is what Jesus would want and what the Church has always taught. It's an abuse of his office. While he co-wrote the Catechism, he didn't have autonomy over what went into it. The final say rested with the CDF and ultimately the Pope. We see now what would have been included if he had had that automony.

    I see in him the worst kind of clericalism. A deferntial creep slipping in what he can get away with behind an outward show of deferential obedience. That the Vatican have sent Cardinal Marx and him to Ireland making sure that everyone is singing from their hymn sheet scares the life out of me. They will do to Ireland what they have done in Germany and Austria which is kill off what remains of the faith. They do so using dulcet tones and sanctimonious language to convince the remnant faithful that Jesus would want us to twist what He said to accommodate those who have rejected the Gospel. It didn't work in Germany, France or Austria. Only a lunatic would believe that it will work in Ireland and only an enemy of the faith would let the likes of him anywhere near the faithful.

    The fact is that Judas was an apostle who betrayed Jesus and handed Him over for non-believers to abuse Him. While the Blessed Eucharist doesn't have the appearance of the 33 year old Jesus, it is the same Jesus scourged and crucified by non-believers or those who believed but rejected His message of repentance. When we hand the Eucharist to non-believers or the unrepentant, we are following in the steps of Judas. Cardinal Schonborn would turn us all into modern day Judases. Prince of the Church or not, he is no better than the Apostle Judas.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  17. padraig

    padraig New Member

  18. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    Cardinal Meisner was a fighter, but his last hours were touched by sadness
    by Marco Tosatti

    posted Thursday, 13 Jul 2017

    'Meisner’s role in the conclave was decisive. He convinced his fellow countryman to accept the election. Meisner himself revealed some of the details in a book. “Now, you will think I am mad, but out of responsibility to the Church I feel obliged to tell you that you must become Pope,” Meisner told Ratzinger in 2005. Ratzinger was not so sure. “His answer was: ‘You cannot do this to me.’”

    Eventually, of course, Ratzinger was elected, and in the Sala Ducale, near the Sistine Chapel, one of the first photos shows Meisner near Ratzinger, but not too near, and no one else in the vicinity.

    Meisner was friendly with the German journalist Paul Badde, and just after the conclave told him: “Today I fought as never before in my life.” Badde says that it was Meisner who “had, during the conclave, uncovered and thwarted a plot by the so-called St Gallen group against that same election [of Joseph Ratzinger]”. The St Gallen group had tried to elect a progressive pope in 2005; Jorge Mario Bergoglio was blocked then, but not eight years later.'
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  19. Byron

    Byron Powers

    I'm afraid it's a lost cause. The corruption inside and outside the Church is immense. There are so many against His laws. The confusion is everywhere. The wolves are in charge. The only way to bring back the truth is through a supernatural phenomenon.
    SgCatholic, sterph and Dolours like this.
  20. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Perhaps that is what this meant:

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