I feel a bit bumbling here ... In a thread I started on memories of Catholic Ireland, Padraig kindly responded ... But he also brought in the important fact that this Church of the past had an "endemic" cruelty and abuse. I responded there: "On the subject of this endemic evil, I wonder (???) if there should be a separate thread. I might start one. That is if people have MEMORIES of being abused here that might be best placed here. But if its the work of analysing this endemic evil perhaps that is best elsewhere (?). Bumbling ... I am not sure how to do this. Anyway, I am very grateful for your memories and might start another thread on the scandals for analysis of that ..." So, bumbling, I am starting a new thread ... I feel Padraig is surely right. This endemic cruelty must be confront and never forgotten. At the same time, I admit so much confusion in this matter. I grew up largely in Oregon USA (but also England) and as a young man I once did jury duty. There I heard of horrific abuse in both a (secular) juvenile detention centre as well as in the home ... My point is this terrible, not to be denied, abuse and cruelty may be endemic everywhere ... And I wonder ... again I am bumbling and unsure of myself here ... whether the undoubted evil that did exist in Ireland has sometimes clouded people to the fact that it was also endemic in secular countries like the America I grew up in. This is so hard to talk about - but I think I need to try. Please forgive any bumbling ineptness in this very sensitive, yet very important matter that Padraig has (rightly) raised.