Discussion in 'Positive Critique' started by padraig, Jul 16, 2022.
Which is why we call them, 'Holy' and since they do all get to heaven they are all saints.
I was actually quoting Holy Scriptures - St Paul in his letters to the Cornithians --
'We see now through a glass darkly' (1Cor 13v12)
As for pain of soul in purgatory I defer to St Padre Pio who had a special devotion to the Holy Souls -
'Padre Pio had an exact knowledge of the state of a soul after death, including the duration of the pain until reached total purification' (Gerardo De Caro notes 1943 with Padre Pio).
In 1945 Fra' Modestino asked Padre Pio a comparison between a fire on earth and the flames of Purgatory. "They compare like fresh water and boiling water."
We must empty purgatory with our prayers." - St. Padre Pio
Padre Pio said one time that far more souls visited him from Purgatory than people who are still living. I think he was a little fearful of them at the start, but then became quite used to them.
Throughout all of 1 Cor 13:, Paul is referring to Love/Charity.. And not Purgatory
Verse 12? Paul's referring to the Understandings of Prophecy completed / Heaven when we get there = and not, Purgatory..
8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
These two following selections from Sacred Scriptures present both interest of Jesus , His Gospel to be accepted - and a possible/probable mirror of Purgation of Sin -
RE: NOAH. Realize . When God caused the Flood, everybody on Earth was destroyed - who in spirit went to a sort of "holding tank/prison) except for 8 persons: Noah and Family
From St. Pope Peter .. Note especially God's Words in RED
1 Pet 3 -
18For Christ also died Some witnesses read: suffered. for our sins
In the body he (Jesus Christ) was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life.
19And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.
20They had refused obedience long ago, while God waited patiently in the days of Noah and the building of the ark,
and in the ark a few persons, eight in all, were brought to safety through the water.
21This water prefigured the water of baptism through which you are now brought to safety. Baptism is not the washing away of bodily pollution, but the appeal made to God by a good conscience; and it brings salvation through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who entered heaven after receiving the submission of angelic authorities and powers, and is now at the right hand of God.
1 Pet 4 -
1Remembering that Christ endured bodily suffering, you must arm yourselves with a temper of mind like his.
2 When a man has thus endured bodily suffering he has finished with sin, 2and for the rest of his days on earth he may live, not for the things that men desire, but for what God wills. 3You had time enough in the past to do all the things that men want to do in the pagan world. Then you lived in licence and debauchery, drunkenness, revelry, and tippling, and the forbidden worship of idols. 4Now, when you no longer plunge with them into all this reckless dissipation, they cannot understand it, and they vilify you accordingly; 5but they shall answer for it to him who stands ready to pass judgement on the living and the dead.
6Why was the Gospel preached to those who are dead?
In order that, although in the body they received the sentence common to men, they might in the spirit be alive with the life of God.
7The end of all things is upon us, so you must lead an ordered and sober life, given to prayer. 8Above all, keep your love for one another at full strength, because love cancels innumerable sins. 9Be hospitable to one another without complaining. 10Whatever gift each of you may have received, use it in service to one another, like good stewards dispensing the grace of God in its varied forms. 11Are you a speaker? Speak as if you uttered oracles of God. Do you give service? Give it as in the strength which God supplies.
In all things so act that the glory may be God's through Jesus Christ;
to him belong glory and power for ever and ever. Amen.
Via God's GOSPEL, we receive JESUS Mind
Niceness is a social thing, but goodness is a moral thing.
When you're very young you have no sense of discernment and consider people who make you feel good as being good.
When you think about it there is no more horrid word than the word, 'Nice'.
There is no need to be nice, or to be right, but in humble confidence, speak the truth. And if one finds oneself in error, be ready to acknowledge that and accept the correction with a joyful heart.
perhaps we're dealing with some non-distinct definitions (plural) of singular terms. ?
I agree that when/if we hear a better - more truthful argument/understanding than what we may 'currently' possess - that we should immediately incorporate the more truthful way into our mind.
That said, Scriptures speak of how we are when God's Holy Spirit is leading us.
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)
Those with strong opinions on the nature of Purgatory, might want to read what the Saints had to say on the matter:
And St. Pope John Paul II - speaks excellently on what Purgatory is necessary, along with what it is.. - replete with Scriptural and Magisterial references!
Purgatory Is Necessary Purification
Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory.
He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".
1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.
For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).
To share in divine life we must be totally purified
2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.
According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)
The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).
3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).
Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).
Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence
4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).
Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).
5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).
Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
Frankly, I don't disagree with anything in your quote. But I think if you read the book that I linked above, you will see a more complete description of Purgatory and what we as Catholics are called to do about it. Specifically missing in the quote you provided is a description of the excruciating pains experienced by those in Purgatory and the necessity of those on earth to pray for the release of those "poor souls" from Purgatory. That is, the traditional Catholic emphasis on the reason to avoid Purgatory at all cost.
Very true!!! I believe part of their agony was failing to stand in awe of the Love of God, of considering venial sin as trivial, though each one insults the Sacred Heart. So yes, their grief is real and excruciating at times, but their purification opens up the channel of love arising to Heaven. Could the pain of absence from the Lord then be the last of all purgations?
Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
I came across this little video today which is a little bit frightening. We know form what various Popes and Saints have said and also from what Our Lady has been saying that we have entered the End Times; the Period where the Sheep separate from the Goats. In other words the Good grow more and more Towards Goodness and the Bad Towards true Evil.
It is, if you like the End, the Death of Niceness and more and more a move towards open out and out war towards the two sides of things.
One thing the commentator said I thought is very insightful. We live in civilised Western Societies which have every appearance of Gentility, of the Rule of Law. So , on the outside everyone and everything appears wonderful and shining clean on the outside. It is only when we take a closer harder look we see that the inside is full of filth and dead mans bones. This is the problem with niceness. It is such a mocker, such a deceiver.
Jesus did not call the Pharisees, 'Whited Sepulchers' without reason. This is also true of our own Religious Authorities as it was of his own. Startling niceness and smiles without; dead bones within.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.
I was taught a brief on Purgatory as a child..
You're in a place akin to burning furnaces.. for an undetermined length of time - and saying varying Indulgences lessens the time in varying lengths.... with a Plenary Indulgence being the 'best'.
I concurred with what St. Pope JPII teaches on Purgatory before he penned it (albeit not as eloquently as him) .
I've said it before and I'll say it again.. Via switching in Prayer to the perfect (vs the imperfect) Act of Contrition, my POV/Attention shifted to Jesus/God's Kingdom! (and away from Hell)
I'm not afraid of Purgatory IF that's what God wills.. for via PURgatory, I'll be PURified and therefore be acceptable to enter God's Kingdom Forevermore.
I try to do my best in allowing Him to assist me in RePenting... for Jesus Teaches we are to be Perfect as God is. - Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. 1 Pet 3
The reason the Gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. 1 Pet 4
The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
I think there is a certain Mystery about Heaven, Purgatory and Hell. Even this life is full of Mysteries.
God is never boring to those who pay Him due attention
Even though some question and seek answers 'now' re: some 'things', there are 'things' which are above our heads to ever be able to know (at least this side of our time on Earth..)
And there are many things re: Heaven which shall only be known when we arrive - and after we are there.
As actual Children of God with Jesus as our elder brother sibling, children become like their Father.. .
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
Heaven is were we will see more perfectly, in the Beatific vision. But even there we shall just be at the very start of our Eternal Education and a billion years from now will still be in 1st grade.
Our eyesight shall be fixed, but the learning begins.