Moynihan Letters after Meeting Vigano

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by Dolours, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Dr. Robert Moynihan's Letter No. 48 headed "A New Church?" on the Inside the Vatican website is worth reading. Dr. Moynihan says:

    "I recently spent considerable time with Archbishop Viganò discussing his vision of the Church and her situation, at a year’s distance from his 2018 Testimony. I am preparing a more complete report than this Letter, and the ones which will follow in coming days, which I hope to publish on October 4. If you would like to pre-order a copy of that report, you may write to me by return email, including your mailing address, and I will write back to you with further details."

    The "Letter" is too long to quote and summarising it risks doing it an injustice, so I'll just post the link. The contents seem pretty explosive to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what others think of it. Here's the link:
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  2. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I'm almost afraid to look.

    I'll read it later when I get home:)
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  3. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    The Vigano part is about the second question Pope Francis asked the Archbishop the day he asked his opinion of Cardinal McCarrick. Vigano's response to the Pope's question:

    "In answer to this second question, Viganò told Pope Francis (he says) that the Jesuit order in the United States had played a key role in secularizing the country’s influential Catholic universities, and had often been in the forefront of an effort to change Catholic teaching in a direction not in keeping with the wishes of all the recent Popes — Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI — and that, if Pope Francis could manage to reign in the order, reform it, and restore it to its former orthodox path, it would be a great gift to the Church in the United States and throughout the world."
    Giving a negative report on a pervert and the Jesuits was the kiss of death to the poor Archbishop. Telling the Jesuit Pope the truth about the Jesuits surely wasn't a good career move.

    Cardinal Bea doesn't come out of it too well either.
  4. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Dolours, Than you for posting this and starting this thread. I agree with Archbishop Vigano. The following is from your link:

    The Emeritus Pope’s essential point is that the temptation to create a “new” Church is a temptation “from the devil” which must be rejected.
    From Revelation 12 which I believe that we are in midst of currently:

    3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.
    7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:
    8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    I realize that many people believe that this scripture is a summary of the Church from it's beginning but I believe that there is a culmination discussed in this scripture also which is apparent when "a thousand two hundred sixty days" is mentioned.

    Yes, this article is very good and I am looking forward to the following articles that Robert Moynihan has mentioned. It appears that some members of the Church, mainly the Jesuits, have been doing the same or similar thing as are secular schools have been doing for years - in a word, brainwashing our youth. It appears the modus operandi was to train the youth and then make the changes that they want and they will garner very little resistance. I agree with Archbishop Vigano that the term "a new paradigm shift" is code for a new Church. :cry:


    I hope that the following is not too far off the track of this thread but since it has to do with Jesuit priest Father James Martin I am posting it here.

    I just love Father Mark Goring. For me, he embodies what Jesus Christ has in mind for the priests of His Church.:love:

    Father Mark references the following 3 hour video in his video above but I have not watched it yet. I am posting it here in case anyone is interested in watching it/listening to it.

    Edited to add:

    I hope that you don't mind that I have added the following video.

    Please stay in the barque of St. Peter! Ultimately, if we do stay in the Church we will win!!!
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  5. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I read Dy Moynihan's letter. I don't think it sheds any light on anything we did not already know.

    ..though it is a good summation of many things and a general sense of direction.

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  6. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    Me either. Though, it might be yet another thing to wake people up that things are off the rails.

    There are many people who are intentionally ignoring all of this. They refuse to recognize it.

    View attachment 10864
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  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I am afraid some people if you drove over a cliff they would still be eating popcorn and laughing in the back seat. Jesus spoke of this when he He said , 'Blind leading the blind'.

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  8. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I share your opinion of Fr. Goring. I watched the part of the Matt Fradd tape where they discuss Fr. Martin. That part begins at about an hour and 51 minutes into the tape. The way they bent over backwards to make allowances for Fr. Martin preaching a different Gospel was irksome at first but it was worthwhile listening to the discussion because the priest gave very good advice on Catholic teaching and how to explain it to people with same sex attraction.

    The videos aren't really off topic. I think, however, that all these 6th/9th Commandment issues are only part of the New Church agenda. Making Church teaching out to be harsh and unmerciful is convenient, and using people with same sex attraction or those in heterosexual "irregular situations" to advance the agenda is a cynical abuse of people in difficulty. Using the sex abuse crisis is particularly cruel. I suppose that one way of looking at it could be that the crisis was created to fit the intended solution.

    Don't forget that the Jesuits educate the children of the elite. In predominantly Catholic countries, those children would have been future leaders. I thank God that Archbishop Vigano is finally saying what must have been staring the hierarchy in the face for decades. It remains to be seen whether we have enough Bishops willing to right the ship.

    During his recent in-flight interview, Pope Francis, while advising against proselytism, quoted that phrase about preaching the gospel and using words only when necessary. He, along with others, attributes its source to St. Francis but there's no evidence linking it to St. Francis. Funny how lack of provenance is acceptable for that saying but not acceptable for the St. Francis prophecy about the Holy Spirit sending us a destroyer Pope not canonically elected.

    If we have two barques, how will we know which is the true barque? What if Peter is in one barque and the Deposit of Faith in another? Do we stay with Peter in the hope that a future Peter will reclaim the Deposit of Faith from the other barque? Or do we head off into the unknown with Peter and wave goodbye to the Deposit of Faith? Pray that we aren't faced with such a terrible choice.
  9. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    There's more to come, Padraig, and quite a bit more by the look of it. Archbishop Vigano was there through all the post-Vatican 11 changes and Pope John Paul's attempts to tackle the problems with the Jesuits. Pope Francis credits Cardinal Martini with smoothing out those creases. It will be interesting to see whether Archbishop Vigano knows and tells more about what really happened.

    Fr. Malachi Martin worked closely with Cardinal Bea. I haven't read it, but by all accounts Fr. Martin's book about the Jesuits didn't cast them in a good light. I always found it strange that, despite going to the extreme opposite of Cardinal Bea's modernism and being ahead of the curve in speaking out about evil inside the Church, Fr. Martin avoided drawing attention to Cardinal Bea's key role in the wreckage. Fr. Hardon said that Malachi Martin was right but I've never seen anything from him naming names. Archbishop Vigano might point to a few missing pieces in the jigsaw puzzle.

    No problem can be fixed by glossing over or ignoring a major cause of it. The hierarchy have been pussyfooting around the Jesuits for far too long. At least Vigano is finally saying what his brother Bishops have feared to mention. Whether or not it leads to any significant changes, it looks like the curtain is being drawn back enough to let in a chink of light. We were baptized in the Mystical Body of Christ, not some elitist society which has been acting like a tail wagging a dog for far too long.
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  10. AED

    AED Powers

    Cardinal Bea was Pope Pius XII's confessor and close advisor. Also the same role for John XXIII. According to M. Martin Bea was appalled and frightened by a conversation he overheard between Kung and Shillibeecx (spelling?) Detailing their plans to work from within to "change the Church".
  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria


    There is only one barque of Peter with possibly some apostates running things, at a minimum I would call them highly confused.

    I think that the clergymen who are currently upholding the Faith will never leave the Church. I believe that they would prefer to be martyred than to do that.

    We stay in the Church and continue to follow Christ and the doctrines that we know are the Truth and we help relieve some of the confusion that is being created as much as we possibly can in the most loving way as possible.

    Edited to add-

    I corrected my post for anyone who comes across this in the future because I was referring to the barque of Peter.

    May God bless everyone here. Peace.:love:
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  12. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I finally managed to download the book , 'In Sinu Christi', after multiple efforts failed. I am reading it very slowly , a chapter at a time with great blessings.

    It seems to me this work throws such huge light on what is going on in the Church at present.

    People are so kind and measured in their comments on what Pope Francis and his sidekicks at present. I admire this , he reminds me of a drunk child attempting advanced neuro surgery.

    Only history will show us how much damage this one individual has caused our poor, poor Church. He is like a human wrecking machine.

  13. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    That may well be true, but don't you find it odd that if Cardinal Bea was appalled and frightened at what he overheard, he didn't nothing to reverse whatever changes his collusion with them had instigated?
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  14. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    A barque is simply a sail boat so there can be many barques. There can be only one barque of Peter, and that barque must include the Deposit of Faith. For example, were a Pope to openly declare something blatantly heretical such as a denial of the Resurrection and some Bishops, or even a majority of Bishops, were to declare that to be a doctrinal development inspired by the Holy Spirit, would the Pope and the Bishops in union with him be in the same barque as the Deposit of Faith? Hitherto, we all took it for granted that such a thing couldn't happen because a majority of Bishops would declare the Pope to have renounced the papacy. But what if a Pope were long enough in office to "stack the deck" with a majority of like-minded Bishops before making such a declaration? Where, then, would be the true barque? Would it be the one with the Pope and the Bishops in union with him or would it be the rudderless barque containing the Deposit of Faith? We haven't reached that stage yet, but looking at what's happening now, I find it hard to imagine such a situation to be impossible.

    Hard though it is to imagine, the next Pope could be worse than Pope Francis.

    I agree that today's faithful clergymen will never leave the Church. That doesn't mean they couldn't be excommunicated. St. Athanasius was excommunicated.
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  15. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Glad you got it. It's a very soothing book to read in these troubled times. Jesus told the monk that He was about to purify the priesthood. That was back in 2009. Looks like He's doing it the hard way. We can do our part by praying that all our priests will take the easy route.
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  16. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    In reading the message on page 240, our Lord makes very clear that it is NOW that we are in the great tribulations which scripture and prophecy speak to, not years from now as some seem to indicate.
  17. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Dolours, I corrected my post above because I was referring to the barque of Peter and not just any barque.

    I remember Cardinal Raymond Burke stating that as soon as a pope declares something blatantly heretical (to use your terminology) than that pope would immediately cease to be pope. Thankfully there are currently enough orthodox clergy including bishops in the Church all over the world to call a pope out if this were to happen.

    I suppose that the scenario that you have suggested is possible at some time in the future when there are no longer many orthodox clergy in the world as there are today but I just can't envision this happening any time soon. I honestly don't believe that the majority of clergymen in the Church today are not on the side of orthodox doctrine but I believe that those with the biggest mouths, so to speak, are the ones that are pushing for a "paradigm shift" - aka. a new church.

    In addition, APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM - explains that the Holy Spirit works through all the members of the Church. Therefore, I believe that some people (clergymen and/or laity) would act should the magisterium ever do what you have suggested.

    As an example, on last night's World Over (around the 6.5 minute mark) Robert Royal recalled how the African bishops spoke out against including LGBT material from being introduced at the Youth Synod. I remember that terminology was slipped into the working document but at least these African bishops spoke up the way that they did.

    I am optimistic that Our Lady's Heart will triumph and the world will be granted a period of peace, as we have been told. I suppose that I am remaining positive in many ways in regard to the Church.


    We also have St. John Bosco's prophecy of the two pillars to reflect on to help us stay positive.

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  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I think we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and leave the future in God’s hands. Jesus, I trust in You.
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  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Wonderful messages, wonderful. I am so delighted reading them.

    Quite wonderful. A Great Grace.
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  20. padraig

    padraig Powers

    If Prophesy is vain; why then does the Good God send us Prophets and tell us to read the Signs of the Times? If the future t need not concern us why does God constantly reveal it to us through His Prophets?

    There is a huge difference between worrying about the future and making due preparations and necessary changes. In the future we may go to either heaven or to hell.

    Should this not concern us? 'Work out your Salvation in Fear and trembling'.

    1 Thessalonians 5:20-21

    20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
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