Careful looking to long gone saints for what they believed about certain matters. Dogma can not change, but Doctrine can develop over time. For example St Thomas Aquinus did not believe a fetus recieved an immoral soul from the first moment of conception...only later on. Limbo was never a Dogma of the Church.
In Pope Benedict's words Limbo was “theological hypothesis.” Now, is Baptism still nessesary for Salvation? Yes Baptism of desire is accepted by the Church. The desire for Baptism can be supplied by others in the case of infants. I see no impediment in Church teaching for believing these children are in heaven.
You may be right. You may be wrong. I would be careful though a lot of theological thought in modern times is coloured by a background of, 'I think, I feel'....a kind of subjective thought of, 'I want this to be right'. because it feels like me to be right...a subjectivist feeling about things rather than an appeal to objective theological reality. However yours is certainly the modern, from the 1960's idea of things. But a lot, loads and loads of things crept in since the '60's that troubles me. As Pope Paul talked about the Smoke of Satan entering the Church. I wouldn't be too totally inclined so totally, totally sure of things as you appear to be.. my own inclination is to be far, far more tentative on the subject. https://newsaintthomas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Limbo-Paper-March-31-2015.pdf
Well I am certainly no modernist. Nor are my beliefs built on just feelings. The Church has never officially defined infant limbo in any church council or document. It was never required that any Catholic believe it. The "limbo" of the fathers...the temporary place of Moses and Abraham were before Christ's resurrection is a separate concept from the concept of infant limbo. It seems the idea of an infant limbo was first proposed at the time Augustine as a compromise to his more stringent beliefs. Although I have the greatest respect for this great saint, his opinion was not universal when he proposed that all unbaptized children go to hell..This is not just a 1960s innovation.
Interesting question. I believe we can pray for them and hope that they may be saved one day, but I think it is possible they may go to limbo at least temporarily, just like the OT saints did. It is a bit speculative, to be sure, but even Scripture shows us an incident where an unbaptized child was sanctified in the womb, John the Baptist, when Jesus and Mary visited him; "he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born; 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy." (Luk 1:15; 42-44). It's surely within God's Providence to sanctify infants in this extraordinary manner at times if He deems it right. Will He sanctify all? We don't know; it remains uncertain imho, but we may legitimately pray and hope so - provided, of course, we do everything in our power to Baptize children as long as we have the opportunity. But if, after doing all we can, e.g. in miscarriages etc, it seems we can do nothing more, then we must be content to know God works all things for good to those who love Him, and we can dare to hope that He will have a way, unknown to us, to bring these children home to Heaven one day. My opinion is the children go to limbo until the end of the world - as the OT elect did until Christ came - and then after that go to Heaven. Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 1261: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1261.htm Our Lord, in a message in Africa to Barnabas Nwoye (has Church Imprimaturs; though not fully approved yet), gave this Prayer for Aborted Infants: " Prayer for the Baptism of Aborted Babies (29 July 1998) "Today the blood of innocent children has filled heaven. Their number is too great, too great . . . the wrath of the Eternal Father is about to fall on mankind...Their blood disturbs My Agonizing Heart and increases My agony...Through this prayer, large numbers of innocent unborn babies will be saved. Pray it daily and make it known to the world. Anyone who teaches it will not be lost. Innocent souls in heaven will not let them become lost. I, with My Love and Mercy, will protect them from falling into mortal sin." Heavenly Father, Your love is eternal. In Your ocean of love, You saved the world through Your only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Now look at Your only Son on the Cross Who is constantly bleeding for love of His people, and forgive Your world. Purify and baptize aborted children with the Precious Blood and water from the Sacred Side of Your Son, Jesus Christ, Who hung dead on the Cross for their salvation; in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. May they, through the holy death of Jesus Christ, gain everlasting life, through His wounds be healed and through His Precious Blood be freed. There to rejoice with the saints in heaven. Amen." https://www.preciousbloodinternational.com/prayers_11.html Imho, we should pray because it is not yet certain whether they will go to Heaven. They may or they may not. It depends on God's Grace and on the Church's Prayers.
between the two opinions defended on this matter we have the consensus that these children are saved, which is comforting.
I posted a response that I realized wouldn't be helpful. So I deleted it. God can bring good out of all things. I ended up reading Church teaching for a few hours after deleting my post. One thing is clear...The Church has not definitively settled all the doctrinal issues... some are settled, others are not.
I was thinking and praying about Limbo and thought of the English Mystic and Hermitess St Julian of Norwich ( who also happens to be the Patron Saint of Cats, ..which is so cool).
Anyhow Julian was meditating about hell and got upset about it, most especially about the fact that it is Eternal and the Lord came to her and consoled her saying, 'All things will be well and all manner of things will be well!' It just occurs to me that the same could be said of Limbo. This it is in the Lords hands and He will take care of it. My guess is that too at the Last Judgement God will sort out Hell and Limbo as well. He will not so to speak leave His laces undone. I personally suspect Limbo will be not be Eternal, but don't really know However one time many years ago I was thinking and praying about hell being Eternal and the Lord showed me something regarding it. He showed me at the End of Time Hell being picked up like a table cloth and folded in on itself so that it was kind of folded in on itself. Frozen forever like an iced Tear of God or like a fly in Amber. Eternal; yes but frozen in the moment. ..it is hard to put into words but I found it very consoling..
..also of course we know that Purgatory is not Eternal. It has its ending. We do know from what Our Lady has said that some souls will remain there until the end of the world.. https://purgatorysouls.blogspot.com/2014/03/sister-lucia-of-fatima-writes-about_19.html SISTER LUCIA OF FATIMA WRITES ABOUT AMELIA AND PURGATORY You, no doubt, remember the statement that Our Lady made to Lucia at Fatima, when she was asked about the fate of two two girls from the village who had recently Lucia asked Our Lady: “Is Maria das Neves in Heaven?" Our Lady replied: "Yes, she is." The Lucia asked about the other girl, who was aged around eighteen or nineteen: "And Amelia?" This time, Our Lady said: "She will be in Purgatory until the end of the world" Amelia: until the end of the world!? Surely, a startling and perplexing communication! Some commentators have tried to tone it down, but not Lucia herself. In her last booklet, which she wrote not long before her death, Sister Lucia shares her ideas about the shocking remark of Our Lady with respect to Amelia's time in Purgatory, which may serve well as an insight to the mystery of Purgatory. Here follows Sister Lucia’s reflection and explanation: Lucia later became a religious, eventually joining the Carmelite Order “I have been asked many questions concerning this reply of Our Lady and I don't know too well how to answer them. I didn't ask Our Lady for a clarification, I was too young to think about that. But I have meditated a lot about this detail of the Message. Our Lady of Fatima “After all—I ask myself—what is Purgatory, actually? ... We see that the word "Purgatory" means "purification," and as all of us are more or less sinners, all of us need being purified of our own sins, faults, and imperfections, in order to be admitted to the enjoyment of the possession of the Kingdom of eternal glory. We can still realize this purification during this life, if God gives us the time for it: by asking God for forgiveness, with sincere repentance and the resolution to change our life by doing penance, receiving the sacrament of confession. [At this point, Sister Lucia sums up all kinds of sins and continues] : “All these things, and many others, too numerous to mention, are against the commandments of the Law of God and require a great purification, even if they have already been confessed and forgiven with respect to their punishment . . . but not expiated with respect to their purification; until this [expiation] renders us worthy to be admitted to the immense ocean of God's Being. “This purification—that is called "Purgatory"—can be more or less extended, depending on the number of our sins, faults, and imperfections, and on their gravity, for which we have not given complete satisfaction by means of reparation, good works, penance, and prayers. “And how are we purified in Purgatory, or what purifies us? I don't know very well. In the past, they said that we are purified by being thrown in a hot fire, and that this fire was equal to that of Hell. Modern writers seem not to concord any more with this way of thinking. “As for me, it seems to me that what purifies us is love, the fire of divine love, which is communicated by God to the souls in proportion as every soul corresponds. It is said that if a soul is granted the grace to die with a perfect act of love, that this love purifies it totally, so that it can go straight to Heaven. This shows us that what purifies is love, along with contrition, sorrow for having offended God and the neighbor, by sins, faults, and imperfections, because all this is against the first and last commandments of the Law of God: You shall love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. That way, the small or big flame of love—even though it be only a wick that is still smoldering—will not extinguish, but will be scintillating and increasing until it totally purifies the soul and makes it dignified to be admitted, to live in the immense ocean of the Being of God, to participate with all the other blessed ones in the wisdom, power, knowledge, and love of God, in proportion as God wants to communicate it to every soul; while all united sing the hymn of eternal love, praising and glorifying our God, Creator and Savior. “I don't know if all I am saying here is exactly so; if Holy Church says it in another way, believe her and not me, who am poor and ignorant; I can be mistaken. This is what I think and not what I know ... Thus we see that our Purgatory can be more or less prolonged, conform the state of grace and the degree of love of God we find ourselves in at the moment of passing from earthly life to the sphere of supernatural life, from time to eternity.”
Interesting thread... Hell Limbo Heaven Limbo is Limbo but not for souls. Its for natural matter and Gods creatures. One dies but some things disappear from physical world. Those that disappear have no soul. Those with souls either go to heaven or hell. The real interesting part is maybe entering heaven we see family, friends, pets & great joy but gradually it turns into happiness in its pure form Being one with God. In our final state...not sure we really comprehend the vastness of our soul in heaven. thank you Padraig...where in this world can you contemplate heaven, hell and limbo. Not stuff you can talk to with friends and most priest would ignore you...but the funny part is...every priest would give different answer, Baptism of blood...Martyrs of our time. But what about miscarriages and deaths of children before baptism. lol I don’t know I’m not God, I’m just a fallen saint. But hey, interesting topic...may it lead us closer to God.
Good thoughts I suffered a miscarriage in the 1980’s. I was hospitalized and my nurse was a saintly Catholic woman who had had many children and at least one miscarriage. She advised me to baptize my baby by sprinkling water and repeating the words of baptism. I did that. I read that we can baptize babies who die unbaptized each day by sprinkling holy water and repeating the words of Baptism. I did that for awhile. I think I shall start again.
I passed by a little baby on a ward on Halloween night, it had a little Witches Hat on its head and tubes coming out of its nose and was hooked up to all kinds of electrical equipment on it. The strangest thing... I would have been much more comfortable without all the Halloween stuff on Wards, especially on Wards with dying children, rather with icons and statues of Our Lady, Crucifixes, pictures of Padre Pio and so on rather than loads of Halloween stuff. ... ..but who am I...? but that baby with the witches hat on makes me so sad...
Thomas Jefferson wrote a wonderful letter to Congress on the Separation of Church and State. He would have found no difficulty in seeing religious artifacts in Public Hospitals. https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html
Poor little baby. Sadly they just don't know any better, I suppose they thought it would be cute. Speaking of witches, I was horrified when I drove by the beach on Halloween, there was a rather large group of women dressed as witches dancing about in the sand. My daughter saw a video of this event that they had posted on the town's Facebook page, and they are Wiccans. I am going back to that beach this week with my Holy water and Blessed salt.
