Like a pig, or like a lamb?

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by BrianK, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. sterph

    sterph Archangels

    It would feel like cowardice if I didn't defend my child to the death. I think I would regret that more than the violence that ensued.
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  2. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Never create the wild murderous dragons of a possible future that may never occur.

    The good Lord promised us that my grace will be sufficient, but not sufficient to our wild imaginiings.

    Sufficient to the day are our worries thereof.
  3. sterph

    sterph Archangels

    I don't dwell on this. I was musing in response to the above conversation. I found that was my conclusion.
    Booklady, BrianK, Jo M and 3 others like this.
  4. maryrose

    maryrose Powers

    All I can add here is 'pray pray pray. Prayer and fasting can stop wars', so Our Lady tells us.
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

    God exists in the present, not in an imagined future.

    Imagined futures are Godless.

    God Grant's Grace's for our needs, not our imagined needs.
  6. sterph

    sterph Archangels

    God is in all my imagined futures. In Heaven. Where I hope one day to be with Him forever.
    Christy1983, AED and maryrose like this.
  7. MMM

    MMM Archangels

    Funny, my son told me he'd like to have a gun to defend himself just last night in a family conversation. In Canada, it is possible to get un-restricted guns and restricted guns (all hand guns and others) with some money, taking some courses, back ground checks and a waiting period. I don't think he'll do this though and I don't believe many people are in a situation that would require a gun. At least not here.

    But guns in general, short of rifles mostly used for hunting or practice shooting are relatively uncommon up here. Open or concealed carry is not allowed in most cases especially hand guns.

    As for defending ones home or residence, I won't be one of those with a gun in the house. Not that I am afraid of them. I've hunted and practice shot many different powerful rifles and even one hand gun.

    My faith has moved me past the fear I used to have. The more my faith grows the more I realize God is right there. I'm leaning on Him for even relatively small things and I can tell He and his Mother are assisting me in a much greater way than ever before. He has, through his Divine Mercy and Will given us all the power of Heaven for our protection if we keep employing it. Anything we ask for imploring His mercy will be given to us as long as it's compatible with God's Will. (these words are everything) It doesn't mean something couldn't or won't happen but I am going to trust in God to lead me into and out of all situations going forward. Of course I will defend myself, my family and any vulnerable person from harm as my power allows. If it's His Will I get shot or attacked so be it. The goal is heaven.

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  8. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Love this!:love:
    I share much of your views and outlook.
    RoryRory and AED like this.
  9. BrianK

    BrianK Proud2bRC Staff Member

    I think you need to read between the lines of my original post and subsequent posts Padraig.

    Yes, I’m making the point that the application of force to stop an unjust violent aggressor can be morally licit.

    I’m also trying to grasp, and help others of my American male marshal mentality to understand, that though the defense of the innocent can be our duty in the eyes of the Church, this time around the risk of immediately being sucked into a whirlwind of demonic violence is so real and imminent that we need to seriously think twice about picking up weapons in the first place.

    This isn’t going to be the Cristeros War, or any other conflict that we may think satisfies the rules of Just War.

    This is going to be universal demonic horrific violence.

    I’d prefer to be a martyr under those conditions than try to apply force morally in the face of unjust violence.
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  10. Mario

    Mario Powers

    How's that for a summary! :) Sixty years ago most everyone would agree on who a Catholic is.:cool::barefoot: Unfortunately, not so now. :(

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
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  11. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Yes, Brian, in striving to be authentic Catholics, I believe we're being formed in the mold of Christians to be martyred as in the days before Constantine. I've mentioned this at least once before, but I don't believe it is accidental that my middle and Confirmation names are Stephen Abel. We shall see. Keep all of us faithful 'til the end!

    Matt 10: 32 Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
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  12. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    You are quite right.
    AED likes this.
  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think a good example of where a forceful response should come into play is Nigeria were an organised genocide of Christians is in play supported by a of Islamist government supported by the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia. There the Church should be funneling in arms, money and training.

    The situation in the USA is still in flux, in melt down. Things will become clearer in the Autumn I think .

    Armed response should always be a final recourse
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  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Its interesting to count how many times during the Mass we pray for peace.

    Count them yourself the next time you're there. Peace is a huge, huge gift.
    Booklady, Katfalls, Donna259 and 4 others like this.
  15. AidanK

    AidanK A great sinner

    Padraig, like yourself, I grew up in N Ireland engulfed in sectarian brutality. I was in a particularly rare scenario being the son of a Catholic RUC sergeant and growing up in a predominantly nationalist town. I experienced violence on a daily basis at school being attacked by schoolmates , and some teachers, due to my fathers profession. On one occasion my brother and I were woken from our sleep and evacuated because there was intelligence that our family was going to be attacked that night. I am no lover of violence but when I think of the Vendee and the Cristeros I can envisage circumstances, very particular circumstances, when it is justified
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  16. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Most of the nearly 7000 clergy martyred in the Spanish civil war went to their exectutions with Christian dignity and with forgiveness towards their enemies.

    All I ask if I'm martyred is that it will be fairly quick.
  17. AidanK

    AidanK A great sinner

    "The Church funnelling arms", I don't think so Padraig. The Church should not be in the business of arming people
  18. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Historically she has never done anything else

    She certainly arns her Swiss Guards and personal protection units and police including heavy weapons, which they are coy about discussing.
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  19. BrianK

    BrianK Proud2bRC Staff Member

    I found the Vatican statement on possession of small arms - including by the head of a family - made under Pope St. John Paul II:

    “Unfortunately, however, it is impossible to ban all kinds of small arms and light weapons.

    "In a world marked by evil ... the right of legitimate defence by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms.”

    (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144.; from a statement delivered by Monsignor Celestino Migliore, head of the Holy See's delegation at the United Nation's conference on illicit trade in small arms and light weapons, New York, July 11, 2001)
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  20. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Great quote

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