LGBT in the Church

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Fatima, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Years ago, people in the US were wearing bracelets with the letters that said WWJD (what would Jesus do). We know what Jesus did in the presence of those who were living outside the will of God. He often times gave a parable or a new teaching (like meeting the woman at the well). But he always had a way of making the person know they were outside the truth if they were. Some wanted to stone him on the spot and he had to flee. The Jewish leaders scratched their heads and eventually had him crucified. It was for the truth that Jesus came into the world and he died by the world. Truth has a way of drawing enemies. I think we will all find this same thing out soon enough. Truth will set you free, but it also may take your earthly life away. The thing I resent is half truths. This is what the devil gave to Adam and Eve. He fed off their good will. I think many in the Church are doing the same thing today by listening to half truths.
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  2. Mario

    Mario Powers

    The highlighted words above could apply to 90% of young, adult Catholics, especially if you spoke against the contraceptive mentality. We are from Mars in their opinion. So we need to pray that God will make us fearless and also provide the unique opportunities when their guard is down. I watched the excellent film that Adoremus referenced back in post #24. When the brother at the end said that he no longer sees himself as a gay, but as a chaste man, I realized it is possible to reach hurting gays with the love and truth of Christ by providing a listening posture rather than only a challenging attitude. It may happen rarely, but I must be prepared to try. I'd rather fall flat on my face 10 times and succeed on the 11th, then never try at all.

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  3. Mario

    Mario Powers


    I can visualize what you mean, but if you watch the film that Adoremus shared in post #24, there is a Catholic brother there who has same-sex attraction, but now lives a chaste life. However, it must be difficult for him because he has not gotten rid of ingrained effeminate gestures. He still must experience some discrimination within the Church because of this. I'll pray that he carries his cross well!

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
  4. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    [​IMG] Claire Chretien Follow Claire
    Wed Apr 12, 2017 - 11:40 am EST

    Vatican names pro-gay Fr. James Martin as communications consultant

    April 12, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – The Vatican has selected a prominent LGBT-pushing Jesuit priest to be a consultor to its communications office.

    The priest selected is Father James Martin, a progressive Jesuit who's the editor-at-large of America magazine. Martin's new book is titled Building A Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the LGBT Community Can Enter into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion, and Sensitivity.

    In it, Martin argues Church employees shouldn't be fired for going against Church teaching by endorsing homosexual acts or openly professing homosexuality because "such firings selectively target LGBT people." He also says "church leaders should address LGBT people by the term they call themselves."

    Several Pope Francis-appointed cardinals endorsed the book along with far-left dissident nun Sister Jeannine Gramick, who said it "shows how the Rosary and the rainbow flag can peacefully meet each other."

    The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has banned Gramick from "any pastoral work involving homosexual persons."

    In 2016, Martin accepted an award from New Ways Ministry, a pro-gay group that has been condemned by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the U.S. Catholic bishops. New Ways Ministry describes itself as "a gay-positive ministry of advocacy and justice for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Catholics, and reconciliation within the larger Christian and civil communities." Part of its mission is to "identify and combat personal and structural homophobia," and "work for changes in attitudes and promote the acceptance of LGBT people as full and equal members of church and society."

    During his speech to the gay activists at the New Ways Ministry event, Martin said the Church should embrace homosexuality’s "special gifts," praised a 17-year-old for “coming out” on a retreat, and equated sexual proclivities with race and age. He said the Church should "lay to rest" its language about the “objectively disordered” nature of homosexual inclinations and acts.

    The Catechism’s language is “needlessly cruel” and “needlessly hurtful,” he claimed, because it says “that one of the deepest parts of a person — the part that gives and receives love — is ‘disordered’ in itself.”

    Many Catholics who feel same-sex attraction yet follow the Church's teachings disagree with Martin and this reductionist approach.

    After President Trump rescinded the Obama transgender bathroom order, Martin tweeted to over 100,000 followers his support of boys using the girls' bathroom and vice versa.

    Martin told America he's "very happy to serve the church in this new way," and that he learned the news via Twitter.

    The Vatican's Secretariat for Communications, the office Martin will be working with, runs the pope's official Twitter account, Vatican radio and TV, and the Holy See's website.

    Michael Warsaw, EWTN's Chairman of the Board, was appointed as a consultor to the Secretariat for Communications. So were another Jesuit and Dominican priest, several other priests, and faculty of Pontifical universities.

    Dr. Dino Cataldo Dell'Accio, Chief ICT Auditor at the United Nations, will also be a consultor to the Vatican communications office.
  5. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    April 12, 2017
    New Ways Ministry’s “Fr. James Martin Effect”
    In late October 2016, Jesuit Fr. James Martin received the annual “Bridge Building Award” from New Ways Ministry, a dissident, pro-gay-identity, pro-gay-sex, pro-gay-“marriage” group whose work was long ago condemned by both the Roman Curia and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. At the award event, Frank DeBernardo, executive director of the group, compared Martin’s impact with the so-called “Pope Francis effect.” Regarding Martin, a giant in Catholic social media, DeBernardo said:

    Well, at New Ways Ministry, we often speak of the “James Martin Effect.” When he posts something [from] New Ways Ministry social media on his social media outlets, the number of views our material receives is usually about twenty times higher than usual. Being mentioned by Fr. Martin is better than being mentioned by the New York Times or CNN.

    Is DeBernardo right? Is there a “James Martin Effect”? Maybe so. Consider these observations:

    • Alongside the endorsement of the book by New Ways Ministry co-founder Sr. Jeanine Gramick, there appear blurbs of praise from Cardinal Kevin Farrell, head of the Roman Curia’s newly formed Dicastery for the Laity, the Family and Life; Cardinal Joseph Tobin, Archbishop of Newark, New Jersey; and Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego.
    • At the April 28-30, 2017, New Ways Ministry symposium in Chicago, speakers include two bishops: Thomas Gumbleton, retired auxiliary bishop of Detroit, and John Stowe, bishop of Lexington, Kentucky.
    Maybe one should agree with DeBernardo that the “James Martin Effect” is quite real.

    Part of the Problem? Part of the Solution?
    What ought a Catholic think of the harmonic convergence of Fr. Martin’s talk and book, the work of New Ways Ministry, and the book endorsements from several bishops? It would be praiseworthy if it were the case that: 1) New Ways Ministry was no longer pro-gay-identity, pro-gay-sex, and pro-“gay-marriage”; 2) the Vatican had withdrawn its 1999 condemnation of New Ways Ministry and its “permanent” prohibition against Sr. Jeanine Gramick working in this ministry area; and 3) the USCCB had formally set aside Cardinal Francis George’s 2010 letter from the conference, in which he states:

    No one should be misled by the claim that New Ways Ministry provides an authentic interpretation of Catholic teaching and an authentic Catholic pastoral practice. Their claim to be Catholic only confuses the faithful regarding the authentic teaching and ministry of the Church with respect to persons with a homosexual inclination.

    Unfortunately, however, it’s not the case. New Ways Ministry continues to confuse the Catholic faithful. It seems right to ask: if the group is both doctrinally and pastorally deficient, how can Catholic clergy stand with the group, wholeheartedly defending and endorsing its work with no cautions or admonitions for the faithful?

    A Sampling of Confusion
    The dissident group’s “James Martin Effect” was also in play in November 2015, when Martin publicly stated via Facebook that “…New Ways Ministry has as much a right to speak as anyone in the church and by the way were granted several interview (and official credentials) at the recent Synod on the Family.”

    The effect was also felt in a 2013 video titled “Who Are We to Judge?”, when Martin stated that “…the idea that someone would come out and be honest and transparent and open about the way that God created them, I think is terrific, I think it’s something that the Catholic Church can support.” Keeping in mind this truly foundational error (that Martin appears to state that God himself is the author of same-sex attraction), let’s see if there are other discernible problems in his “Bridge Building Award” address.

    At the outset of his live talk, Martin acknowledges several of his “heroes” who are present: “first and foremost, Sr. Jeanine Gramick, a pioneer in LGBT-Catholic relations, who … teaches not only with her words but with her life. Second … Frank DeBernardo, for his tireless leadership of New Ways Ministry.” Notably, DeBernardo authored the group’s 2011 booklet promoting same-sex “marriage,” titled “Marriage Equality: A Positive Catholic Approach.” Martin also praised a boy present, a high-school junior, “who just came out during a retreat.”

    For the sake of space, and since Martin’s talk itself exists in both video and text form online, I’m going to broadly cite several key areas of confusion I observed in his talk.

    1. On the “unique gifts” the LGBT “Community” brings to the Church
    The problem here is that the real focus of Church teaching and pastoral activity is the human person and not any “community.” While all can acknowledge the existence of a social entity referred to as the “LGBT community,” it is the individual who receives pastoral aid and affirmation from the Church.

    In fact, the USCCB’s 2006 document on “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination,” refers not to an “LGBT community” but rather to a “gay subculture,” saying that persons experiencing same-sex attraction should not be encouraged “to participate in ‘gay subcultures,’ which often tend to promote immoral lifestyles.”

    Should this be a surprise? The Church has never taught that we are obligated to affirm or welcome a “subculture” that exists in contradiction to the natural moral law. Our pastoral efforts focus on individuals, not categories. In fact, Martin praises Jesus’ own focus on each person he encounters in his public ministry. Jesus reaches beyond “categories,” Martin tells us. Thus, isn’t the Church correct to focus on the person with same-sex attraction and not the “category” of “LGBT community”?

    As to “unique gifts,” the concrete example Martin first offers is that “some of the most gifted music ministers I have known in my almost 30 years as a Jesuit have been gay men.” Is this accurate or just a stereotype? I’ve been a “music minister” for more than 35 years, and I can’t see how my sexual attractions have anything to do with my musical gifts.

    Later, Martin also asserts that “LGBT people” offer the gifts of “compassion, forgiveness, and perseverance to the Church,” and that “gay”-but-celibate clergy and religious are themselves gifts to the Church as well. Okay. But these are all gifts unique to specific individuals, not arising merely from a global “community” experience or as a direct consequence of one’s sexual attractions.

    2. “People [and Groups] Have a Right to Name Themselves”
    This assertion points to a deep confusion about homosexuality—something now even more confusing regarding the transgender phenomenon—do attractions and emotions really give rise to our identities? Are we our longings and feelings? Do they define us, or are we called to define them in accord with a clear understanding of our God-given sexual identities as either man or woman rather than “gay” or “straight”?

    Catholics simply cannot give in to the ideologies of orientation and gender. Every person deserves more than inaccurate labels that only separate us more from our true selves. Relativizing sexuality into “sexualities” is a distortion of the truth, and the Church must make truth clear in its teachings and pastoral practice.

    3. “Almost all the [Church] firings in recent years have focused on LGBT matters”
    The confusion here is the claim that the Church has intentionally selected “LGBT” issues over and above other reasons for terminating employment. But there is no real evidence of this—at all. Rather, people can be fired for a variety of reasons that pertain to public scandal in the Church. Most such firings will be handled discreetly, unless the fired employee seeks publicity. So, ask instead—who seeks publicity when terminated after giving public scandal?

    4. “Saying that one of the deepest parts of a person—the part that gives and receives love—is ‘disordered’ in itself is needlessly cruel”
    This assertion cries out for a follow-up question or two—is the homosexual inclination really the part of a person “that gives and receives love”? Do homosexual acts count as giving and receiving love? The acts are “intrinsically disordered,” and the inclinations are “objectively disordered,” according to the Church’s teaching on the natural moral law. Is the terminology needlessly cruel, or quite needfully accurate? It needs explanation, not elimination.
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers


    In addition, what happened to Martin’s insistence that groups have rights to their own terminology and names, which should be accepted as a sign of respectful listening to that group? Why must the Church do away with the very terms that convey the admittedly-inconvenient truth that certain sex acts and certain inclinations are not ordered toward God’s plan for human sexuality?

    Much, Much More to Consider…
    Space won’t permit more direct considerations, but there is more to behold on the video of Martin’s talk, particularly in the video’s concluding question-answer time. Now, it wouldn’t be fair to come away thinking that there are no points of agreement between portions of Martin’s talk and what the Church professes—there are. But the good elements are simply overshadowed by the kind of confusion long associated with the errors of New Ways Ministry.

    Watch the video. For example, eyebrows will likely raise when Martin states that “of course the hierarchy is not the only group that speaks with authority” and that “holy sisters like Jeanine Gramick” also “speak with authority.”

    Also, your curiosity may be piqued by Martin’s response when asked a rather provocative question, (considering it was a New Ways Ministry event): “How should the Church educate the LGBT community about some of the health dangers of anal sex?” Martin merely says, “…I have zero experience with [that] and, I’m being serious, zero expertise, so I don’t know how I would answer that question.”

    Finally, there was this question from a Baltimore-area priest, who said:

    I’m looking for some pastoral advice … a couple called me on Friday and said, Father, we’re getting married next June … what time do the gay and lesbian pre-Cana classes meet?…. now, I have married gay couples, and I know I’m not allowed to do that…. But, would you [Fr. Martin] like to collaborate in developing a pre-Cana course for gay and lesbian couples [vigorous applause erupts]? I’ll put my name to it—you don’t have to put your name to it [laughter]…. You don’t really have to do it, but what is your response to that?

    After an uncomfortable-seeming grin and pause, Martin asks the priest, “What does your bishop say? … I’m not trying to be flip with these things, but one works within the confines of what the ordinary will allow you to do, basically. So, you’re asking me what I would do, I mean, I’d have to ask my Provincial for something like that, because that’s really, sort of, pushing the boundaries…”

    Then again, isn’t that what New Ways Ministry says the “James Martin Effect” has already done—push the boundaries? Sounds like there could be a brave new world waiting on the other side of that brand-new bridge.
  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    The difficulty with the Church is not that it is not listening but that it has opened the door. We must hate the sin and love the sinner, but loving the sinner does not include opening the doors of our seminaries and Sacred Orders to active sexual perverts and grooming them for high positions in the Church world wide.

    We have loot sight of that which our Spiritual Fathers knew too well. That sexual perversion is a secret poison that spiritually kills all it touches. Look for instance at the decadent society all around us. People now live in a politically correct Dictatorship were to speak the truth about the evil of perversion is to risk massive social shaming and even jail. Far from courageously facing up to this and braving the storm the present Vatican apparatus has sold out to the Gay Mafia, Pope Francis first and foremost.

    It doesn't take , 'Courage' , or 'Vision', to accompany the Pink Mafia on their mutual path to hell. The courage, the real courage is to stand up and say what Saint Paul said, that this is a great evil

    When was the last time you heard a clergyman say from a Pulpit that sexual perversion is a great evil? I never have. Why? Because even if they recognise this they are too afraid to say so. They are not afraid; they are terrified.

    This is the real problem. Telling truth to power.

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  8. padraig

    padraig Powers

    St. Catherine relays words of Our Lord, about the vice agaisnt nature, which contaminaed part of the clergy in her time. Referrng to sacred ministers, He said: “They not only fail from resisting this frailty [ of fallen human nature]…but do even worse as they commit the cursed sin agains nature. Like the blind and stupid having dimmed the light of the understanding, they do not recoginze the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me, this sin against nature is so abominable that , for it alone, five cities were submersed, by virtue of the jugdment of My Divine Justice, which could no longer bear them…It is disagreable to the demon, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being commited. It is true that it is the demons who hits the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demons leaves.

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  9. padraig

    padraig Powers

  10. AED

    AED Powers

  11. AED

    AED Powers

    Praetorian I have done it again. My post reply connected to your earlier post.
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  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    It is so hard because for someone without faith they totally don't understand where we are coming from. They think we are just being bigoted and backward thinking :(
  13. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes. And they take it as rejection. By God's grace in the instance I recounted we were able to reach across the divide and maintain a loving connection although I reiterated a couple of times that I was and would always remain a traditional Roman Catholic to my core. What your family is going through is very common. We are afraid to speak the truth and others bail on the truth completely. Only God can sort this out. Only God can heal this.
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  14. Basto

    Basto Guest

    Pope Francis praises Sister Jeannine Gramick’s 50 years of L.G.B.T. ministry in handwritten letter


    December 10, 2021
    Sister Jeannine Gramick, SL

    Dear sister,
    Many thanks for your letter. It made me happy to receive the news about your 50th anniversary.

    Your letter reminded me of “the style” of God... God has his own style to communicate with us. And we could summarize that style in three words: closeness, compassion, tenderness.

    And I am thinking of your 50 years of ministry, which were 50 years with this “style of God,” 50 years of closeness, of compassion and of tenderness.

    You have not been afraid of “closeness,” and in getting close you did it “suffering with” [compassion] and without condemning anyone, but with the “tenderness” of a sister and a mother.

    Thank you, Sister Jeannine, for all your closeness, compassion and tenderness.

    I pray for you. Please do not forget to pray for me. Greetings to Yayo (Obdulio).

    May Jesus bless you and the Holy Virgin protect you.


    And that is Yayo (Obdulio) with his 19 years old boyfriend:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2022
  15. Basto

    Basto Guest

    Holy Father asks parents not to condemn their children's homosexualism

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  16. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Support your children if they are gay, pope tells parents
    January 25, 2022 World Leave a comment


    Pope Francis said on Wednesday that parents of gay children should not condemn them but offer them support.

    He spoke in unscripted comments at his weekly audience in reference to difficulties that parents can face in raising offspring.

    Those issues included “parents who see different sexual orientations in their children and how to handle this, how to accompany their children, and not hide behind an attitude of condemnation,” Francis said.

    He has previously said that gays have a right to be accepted by their families as children and siblings.

    Also read: WATCH: Orthodox priest shouts ‘Pope, you are a heretic’ at Francis in Athens

    He has also said that while the Church cannot accept same-sex marriage it can support civil union laws aimed at giving gay partners joint rights in areas of pensions and health care and inheritance issues.

    Last year, the Vatican’s doctrinal office issued a document saying that Catholic priests cannot bless same-sex unions, a ruling that greatly disappointed gay Catholics.

    In some countries, such as the United States and Germany, parishes and ministers had begun blessing same-sex unions in lieu of marriage, and there have been calls for bishops to de facto institutionalise these.

    Also read: Vatican office apologises for hurting Catholic LGBTQ community

    Conservatives in the 1.3 billion-member Church have said the pope – who has sent notes of appreciation to priests and nuns who minister to gay Catholics – is giving mixed signals on homosexuality, confusing some of the faithful.

    Last month, a Vatican department apologised for “causing pain to the entire LGBTQ community” by removing from its website a link to resource material from a Catholic gay rights advocacy group in preparation for a Vatican meeting in 2023 on the Church’s future direction.

    The Church teaches that gays should be treated with respect and that, while same-sex acts are sinful, same-sex tendencies are not.
  17. padraig

    padraig Powers

    It's so difficult to write anything very often to comment on something the Holy Father says because it so often so very, very difficult to understand exactly what he means.

    For instance that word to , 'accompany' someone. I have no idea what it means.

    What in this context does the word, 'Support', mean?

    When he talks of not , 'Condemning', what does he mean by this?

    He is a hard man to tie down. Slippery as an eel, I would suppose from ease of very long practice.

    If he actually means what I suspect he really means I would be totally appalled. But it would be hard to make the charge stick as he could wriggle out of it very handily by saying, 'You are misunderstanding me.'..and that, I am afraid would be that.

    I am reminded of the saying of Jesus, 'Let your yes, be yes and your no be no'. But Jesus I suppose did not have the great advantage of a Jesuit education.

    Matthew 5:37

    All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

    As a general rule, I am sorry to say the less I hear about Our Present Holy Father and his highly questionable opinions and various goings on the happier I am, as, I suppose, are many tens of millions of other Faithful sisters and brothers.

    The less the better. Hearing nothing at all, best of all.
  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    There used to be a lady in work who reminds me of Our Holy Father. They used to say about her, 'She has something to say about everything'. It was always noticeable how much happier everyone was in the office when she did not appear. She would, as they say start a fight in an empty room. Herself and Pope Francis must be distant relations.
  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I would suppose though that if a parent had a child who attended the Latin Mass, if they were to imitate the Holy Father's own words and actions they would condemn them and instead of being accompanied and supported, they would be shown the front door?

    But then again being a Traditionalist Catholic appears to fill Pope Francis with horror and disgust, whereas sexual perversion does not.

    Strange old world. Strange old Pope. Very strange..

    Just as unfortunate Vatican workers and Guards who refused to take the experimental Vaccines were shown the front door too.

    Accompanying some people appears fine, accompanying others, not so fine.

    Lutherans. Fine.

    Homosexuals . Fine.

    Abortionists. Fine.

    Traditional Catholics. Not fine.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
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  20. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Thinking about Padre Pio , on the other hand, always puts me in a good mood rather than a rant. :);)

    Thank God for saints like Padre Pio. Holy Priests who kept the Faith handed down by the Fathers.

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