Latin Mass and Ireland

Discussion in 'Ireland' started by Roger Buck, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    I am not sure how people here feel about the Latin Mass in Ireland. As anyone who knows my site will recognise, I have come to believe that the Latin Mass is an essential part of addressing the crisis of the Church - in Ireland and elsewhere. As Benedict XVI wrote when he was Ratzinger in his book Milestones:

    "The ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part upon the collapse of the liturgy."

    I have typing fatigue and am highly pressed for time … I hope no-one will object if I crosspost here something I originally wrote in another forum:

    The Institute of Christ the King is now doing a monthly high Mass usually 2nd Sunday of the month at 6pm in the St. Therese church in Somerton Road, north Belfast.

    I was there last night ... The choir, which is new, includes my wife, and is still finding its way, but I found it very beautiful. I do hope that people near Belfast - or not so near - might consider coming. Not only is the liturgy very, very special, but this Institute needs and deserves support, I believe.

    I'm going to add something possibly contentious in certain quarters (?). Living in France, I was moved by the depth and breadth of the TLM across the country. I was told one never had to drive more than 45 minutes maximum to find a Sunday Mass. Much of that owes to the FSSP and ICKSP.

    By contrast, my time back in Ireland concerns me gravely. I see valiant efforts by local priests, rotas of priests, but no matter how valiant, what is needed is not rotas, irregular Masses etc but what societies like the FSSP and ICKSP can provide, permanent centres with regular, daily Mass and all the other resources which these international societies bring to bear.

    I pray it might be possible in Belfast. The second largest city in the country deserves and needs this. I pray for a time when Ireland might be blessed with access like France, no more 45 minutes …

    And, although it may seem like I am playing an old song, given that I have been convinced by TLM for many years, my conviction only grows month by month, year by year, Ireland needs this Mass.

    So I do want to appeal to any regulars here or any lurkers to remember ICKSP now monthly in Belfast (and of course daily in Limerick, weekly in Galway, monthly in Ennis). They need support. I'm also placing a link to their site here: institute-christ-king.ie/

    Also, a link here to a blog my wife did about the Institute in Ireland: corjesusacratissimum.org/2014/06/on-the-institute-of-christ-the-king-in-ireland/

     
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  2. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    Padraig, over on another thread I discovered the discussion had wandered into traditionalism. I was very, very interested to read what you said there of your childhood experience with Fr Wilders and how you remembered him as saintly!

    Because, oddly I had never heard of this traditionalist priest in Ireland, until someone else told me of him just a few weeks ago. Strange coincidence … or not?

    Anyway, I thought I'd reply to what you said on that thread - which wasn't about traditionalism - over here on this thread, where it seems to fit better.

    I have slightly edited you ...

    I don't want to row either. For I agree with much that you say.

    It IS horrifying how certain traditionalists reject the new Mass. Our Lord is present there and this means rejecting HIM. Yes, there is too much black and whiteness. You seem to have suffered a lot with your father about this. I am sorry to hear that.

    But not all trads are like your unfortunate childhood experience of the SSPX.

    This old Mass I believe is very important, which is why Benedict XVI tried so hard to help it - and to reconcile the SSPX.

    If you or anyone has any more to say about traditionalism in Ireland, I would be grateful to hear it. Thanks to anyone in advance!
     
  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Speaking as a traditionalist I am disconcerted by the statements made about traditionalists in the post above. In my view if you take out the word "traditionalist" in Padraig's quote and put in SSPX I would agree entirely. But to paint the picture that all traditionalists do not accept the Pope, Vatican II, or the Novus Ordo as valid is a gross misstatement. The FSSP for example is an entire religious community of the Catholic Church that accepts all of these things, yet is staunchly traditionalist.

    This is not a knock at you Padraig as the above post may be taken out of context and edited as noted by Roger Buck. I just wanted to clarify for the casual reader that the word "traditionalist" is not synonymous with schismatic.
     
  4. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    Alas, I probably am guilty here. I did edit Padraig a little as I said - and it is taken from a greater context. I apologise for any ill-effects which were not my intent. I just wanted to quote the central bits I was responding to.

    I imagine very much that Padraig makes the distinctions you and I make, Praetorian.

    I also hope to start discussion of this in the Irish context. Because my heart is bleeding for Ireland's wounds and I genuinely believe that the healing of those wounds does involve nurturing traditionalism.

    Again, I am not knocking the Novus Ordo which I attend every day as I cannot get to TLM and I need Our Lord in His Blessed Sacrament.

    Still, I believe that why Benedict XVI so tried to help restore TLM, even to the point of trying to reach out to the SSPX, is that there is something terribly needed here. In the world.

    And in Ireland.

    Again, my apologies to Padraig and anyone else if I have inadvertently sowed confusion.
     
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

    When I was young at that time I would say most of the people, including the priests where in fact schismatic (though since Pope Benedict I suppose they have all been reconciled. I was young and a bit fierce in those days and told my father he was beocmming a Protestant . This horrified him of course and he did some massive back paddling.:D:D

    I would say one thing surprised me about these people, schismatic or not was how holy many of them were. Saintly in fact. This taught me not to judge people like this too harshly. In fact if you read the history of schism in the Church you will see that oftent here were great saints on both sides of the fall out. For instance between both sides at the time the Papal Court at Avignon. Also of course at the Greatest Schism of all between the Orthodox East and the Roman West we found and still find great saints on both sides. I think too we know many of our Protestant sisters and brothers put us to real shame.

    This reminds me of the words of Jesus when the Disciples complained that strangers were working miracles . Jesus told them simply to let them get on with it.

    I feel particularly sad for many of our separated brethren who consider us evil simply because we follow Christ in the Catholic Church.

    The Holy Spirit is full of surprises, there are saints everywhere.

     
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  6. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    The diabolical disorientation talked about on this forum was clearly evident during and after the second Vatican council. The Tridentine Mass was never abrogated and in fact could never have been. There was a deliberate attempt to kill the faith and it has had great success. If you look at the documents and events of that era especially in the mad 70s with ominous figures like bugnini at the helm it is a really tragic story. Of course some mindless people got swept away with the fervour for change and the allurement of innovation. But what is clear from the vantage point of 50 years is the dwvestating impact of changes to the great patrimony of faith. Remember the English did the same in the 16th century and this is why I never receive communion in the hand. This practice was lamented by Our Holy Father Pope Paul VI but alas the revolution was well under way.

    In relation to the first post there is a beautiful Latin Mass at 10.30 every Monday in St Kevin on Harrington street dublin. This Latin mass chaplaincy is a great blessing to the Church
     
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  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I honestly do not have the answer. But I always recall what Pope Paul said in his famous consistory:

    Referring to the situation of the Church today, the Holy Father affirms that he has a sense that “from some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.” There is doubt, incertitude, problematic, disquiet, dissatisfaction, confrontation. There is no longer trust of the Church; they trust the first profane prophet who speaks in some journal or some social movement, and they run after him and ask him if he has the formula of true life. And we are not alert to the fact that we are already the owners and masters of the formula of true life. Doubt has entered our consciences, and it entered by windows that should have been open to the light. Science exists to give us truths that do not separate from God, but make us seek him all the more and celebrate him with greater intensity; instead, science gives us criticism and doubt. Scientists are those who more thoughtfully and more painfully exert their minds. But they end up teaching us: “I don’t know, we don’t know, we cannot know.” The school becomes the gymnasium of confusion and sometimes of absurd contradictions. Progress is celebrated, only so that it can then be demolished with revolutions that are more radical and more strange, so as to negate everything that has been achieved, and to come away as primitives after having so exalted the advances of the modern world.

    This state of uncertainty even holds sway in the Church. There was the belief that after the Council there would be a day of sunshine for the history of the Church. Instead, it is the arrival of a day of clouds, of tempest, of darkness, of research, of uncertainty. We preach ecumenism but we constantly separate ourselves from others. We seek to dig abysses instead of filling them in.

    http://www.catholicstand.com/109/

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Malachi, it is always worth remembering that some of us have accepted under obedience the Holy Mass available to us. I for one wait for the Lord Jesus to come on the scene and make any redirections we may badly need. I prefer to Glorify God in accepting what He has made available, and hope for the future.

    I always think many things had gone way off course in the Jewish traditions by the time Jesus came on the scene. Blessed Mother and Joseph practised the traditions available to them when they were bringing Jesus up. Then when He was grown, we all can read in the Gospels what Jesus thought of the way the Jewish faith was practised. So I guess we will see another load of tables turned over in the Temple when He comes on the scene in the Second Coming (Illumination/Warning).

    But of course by then Heads May Roll, and I mean literally if the warnings we hear about are true; you must have heard about what happened the King of France who failed to Consecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus as requested all those years ago; he literally lost his head.

    I am going to Pray, Hope, and not Worry. Surrendering all to Jesus asking Him to take care of everything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
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  9. Torrentum

    Torrentum Guest

    Incredible. Pope Paul VI is was so insightful.
     
  10. Infant Jesus of Prague

    Infant Jesus of Prague The More you Honor Me The More I will Bless Thee

    Thanks for posting the full context around the "smoke of stan has entered the Church". Many use this line in the wrong way .
     
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  11. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    Padraig, I confess to envying your memories of this time. :) The reconciliation began, however, with St. John Paul II with his indults in 1984 and 1988. These led, among other things, to major priestly societies totally faithful to Rome, including the FSSP and ICKSP who are here in Limerick - and also weekly in Galway, monthly in Belfast, Ennis as I said above.

    Above, I said the ICKSP Mass in Belfast was the 2nd Sunday of the month at 6pm in the St. Therese church in Somerton Road, north Belfast.

    That is usually the case, but this month it was delayed until tomorrow Sunday 18th October.

    Malachi, good to see you mention Harrington Street! From what I've seen, the Harrington St Mass and ICKSP are the most beautiful sung Masses in the country.

    (If anyone is near to/in Belfast, think about coming along tomorrow - it is very, very beautiful …)
     
  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I will go , it is a nice change and will back many happy memories.:) But do you mean the mass in Latin or the Tridentine Mass?

    Anyway I love St Therese's.

    upload_2015-10-17_12-10-31.jpeg
     
  13. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    Got ill and had to miss this, last night, alas. Wonder if you were there and what you felt if you did, Padraig? To answer your question, if you weren't there - it is the Tridentine Mass and sung …

    My wife is in the choir and did go. She said the choir was having problems last night. Normally I find the singing very beautiful …

    Anyway, it should be back to 2nd Sunday of the month after this, at 6pm.
     
  14. Roger Buck

    Roger Buck Angels

    Missed it again this month - due to my wife's illness this time (as she drives and I can't).

    But I will be back. Truly believe this ICK sung Mass - whether in Belfast, Galway, Limerick etc. - is one of the most beautiful in the country … Incredible and so desperately needed.
     
  15. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Is there a difference?
     
  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

    The tridentine mass goes back to the Council of Trent. The Latin Mass is often taken to mean the Novus Ordo (Vatican 2 ) mass in Latin.
     
  17. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I didn't know they did the Novus Ordo in Latin. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose. I thought the whole idea of remaking the Mass was to put it in the vernacular so that the common person could understand what was going on.
     
  18. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Never been to a Latin Mass or Tridentine Mass.

    Sounds like I have missed out!
     
  19. GRENNAN

    GRENNAN New Member

    Hi, we have a Tridentine Mass every Sunday at 5pm in St. Patrick's Kilkenny. www.societyofstoliverplunkett.blogspot.com
     
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  20. GRENNAN

    GRENNAN New Member

     

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