Joan of Arc.

Discussion in 'Video Blogs' started by padraig, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    Ever since I was very young I have struggled a little with Saint Joan of Arc. Nor indeed am I the only one. I recall , for instance my Abbot speak disparingly of her canonisation as being done as a result of French patriotic pressure in the wake of Word War One. [​IMG]


    St Terese of Liseaux and St Joan or Arc being the two pin up saints ,so to speak of French forces in that abominable war.

    I struggled with the idea of a Catholic saint with a sword in her hand killing people. This despite the fact that the Catholic Church is not herself pacifist and has a long tradition of very brave and holy individuals taking up arms to fight for the very survival of the Faith.


    There was for instance in 1920 the example of Marshall Józef Piłsudski leading Poland against the Russian Red Army.

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    Saint Louis of France who led the Crusades against the Muslims in the Holy Land.

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    St Therese of Liseaux had a great devotion to St Joan and dressed as the saint in a Carmel pageant.

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    It may in fact be that St Joan is herself something of a Sign of the Times ; when Catholics may have to bear arms in defense of the Faith once again:

     
  2. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    I wonder about this a lot Padraig - when is it not a sin to break the 5th commandment. If we are going to face into wars, we are going to either fight or not. I like to think I would be strong enough to do what I have to to defend myself and the Faith, but that means I have to be prepared to kill and I don't think I can do that...I never understand how we are supposed to deal with this - our Faith says do not kill and yet we could have to face the fact that if we do not kill our Faith may not survive among us. I know the Faith will survive regardless - it is God's after all. But how are we to decide what to do.
     
    Carmel333 likes this.
  3. Carmel333

    Carmel333 Powers

    I struggle with her too! Just cannot fathom God asking a woman to kill like a man, or for that matter, one of His holy ones to kill even if it is a man. So...I just struggle with it too when I think of it.
     
  4. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    I hope in those days the only sword that I have in my hand is the word of God because used correctly it can move mountains..I had a very vivid dream when was in my twenties St Michael stood in front of me and I knelt down and he handed me his sword I often wondered what it meant but I believe it had to do with Gods word I also had a wonderful experience in my late thirties I was knighted as a member of St Columbanus although I haven't had time to be involved lately but it was a great honour..
     
  5. PotatoSack

    PotatoSack Powers

    I struggle with this myself. I often think of Pope JPII, who lived through war in occupied Poland. He didn't join any Polish freedom fighters, as many his age did, I believe. But he did hide and study to be a priest.

    I think with the times ahead, we may have to defend ourselves, family, or property against an unjust aggressor. According to Catholic Catechism, we have the right to do this. In fact, if you have people depending on you, you have a grave duty to defend your life. As long as it is an unjust aggressor, and we don't do more than is necessary for this aggressor to cause us harm. It seems we can also use arms to protect ourselves. Below is the part of the catechism that covers this. I've bolded some sentences that jumped out at me. Personally, I can't imagine even getting in a fight, but if your life is threatened I think we may surprise ourselves with what we will do.

    Legitimate defense
    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
    2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67
    2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
    If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
    Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
     
  6. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I think it is smething each of us will have to search inside ourselves to find an answer. The answer we think we have found now may not be the answer we come up with when the time comes, according to God's grace.

    I know people with families might have a special path to tread. It is easier to find an answer maybe when it is just oneself to think of.

    For myself I would be happy to die rather than fight. Now. But if other people depended on me....well...

    In either case I have the most shocking temper so goodness knows what I would do,really.

    it reminds me of how much I depend on God's grace. For instance looking at some of the Church Judges who sentenced Joan to death had me grinding my teeth in a ferocious fashion, especially that Dominican with the beard....and that was only a film.

    Yes I am so dependent on grace. I would like to think I would be peaceful, but if so God is going to have to carry me over his shoulder.
     
    Thomas likes this.
  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    John I must say I realy admire your spirit of forgiveness.:)
     
  8. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    PotatoSack - I never knew any of that.

    I had read about the Great Monarch and the battle that he would lead and I always worried about the Christians who would fight with him and would die - would they die in mortal sin? I could never understand - thank you for the link....what a relief.

    It will come down to each person I suppose, but it is comforting to know that when things are so bad, we can defend ourselves and the Faith, as well as our family and country.

    Padraig - it is grace. Hopefully, God will send me enough so that I know what to do. Like MS7, I want to pray "just take me to Heaven", but I don't want to be a coward either - I just didn't know how to obey the 5th Commandment and fight at the same time.
     
  9. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    Thank you Padraig ... it is a real struggle not to stay in grace..
     
  10. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    Maybe the answer is in REV 13

    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
     
    Mario likes this.
  11. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    Found it :) I knew I had a painting of St Therese painted by her sister Celine in 1913 note the angel with the sword...You can have a copy if you wish Padraig it came with the inscription
    Le Seigneur pardonne sans treve
    aux petits aux humbles de coeur (but looks like caeur the ae are joined together)
    pour eux il fait rentrer le glaive
    dans le fourreau de sa douceur
    maybe someone can translate for me...
    View attachment 1129
     
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  12. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    I'm confused again QuD. Does your quote above mean that if somene kills, they are to be killed in turn and the person who kills them also has to be killed? That could go on forever. And what does the last sentence mean. how does it explain the sentence before it?
     
  13. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    My own interpretation of that particular quote from revelation is that those who choose to lift a sword and kill will also die by the sword themselves,,those that choose to be martyred for their faith are the ones who go into captivity they will be the saints and true followers of Christ but it could also mean that the sword referred to is the sword of the Spirit.. but that's just my take on it a theologian will probably have the right way of it...
     
  14. "Quis ut Deus"

    "Quis ut Deus" Powers Staff Member

    :)

    well I just got a moment to translate this myself with google translate lol for all of you that doubted that my sister in heaven speaks to me well lol doubt no more I keep telling you St Therese loves me :love::love::)

    The Lord forgives without truce
    small to humble heart
    for them he returned the sword
    in the sleeve of his sweetness

    Padraig I think she is speaking to you too (y)
     
  15. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Wow!!

    You have the orignal John? That would count as a first class relic, I think?
     
  16. RantingCatholicMom

    RantingCatholicMom New Member

    I have problems with Saint Joan of Arc for different reasons. Her canonization was praised by two of the most prolific atheist progressives of the early 20th century, Mark Twain and George Bernard Shaw. Each wrote a play about her as a way to criticize the Catholic church. Both had no other religious statues other than representations of Joan. Both were progressive socialists/communists and active in the Fabian society. Maybe I should remember not to tarnish her with the same brush of her followers.
     
  17. padraig

    padraig Powers

    God is full of surprises so it is difficult to know for sure.

    But its true the French Governmetn pushed like crazy to have her canonised after World War 1 in a mad splurge of patriotism.

    On the other hand millions of ordinary troops carried her picture along with St Therese and I am always alert to popular Catholic devotion. Popular Catholic religious instinct is rarely wrong.
     
  18. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels


    QuD

    how does that fit in with whats coming. I believe there is a huge battle going to be fought for Catholicism and that the Great Monarch will lead us, a leader sent by God to save us. We will have a choice to follow him and fight (and kill) or not, but I do not think not fighting will be better then.

    Until PotatoSack explained it, I could not see how that could not be against the 5th Commandment.

    Anyone who does fight and kills cannot have their future then decided - their own death will be by the sword too?

    It will probably all come down to Grace, as Padraig said and the course we take will surprise us...but some will fight and they cannot be punished by God for doing that, I think.
     
  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

    No, the teaching of the Catholic Chrcu is not pacifist. This is so wise. We can, all of us only do what we can.

    Personally I hope I never pick up a gun again.

    But I can never say never means never. Who knows? I have a terrible temper for starts.
     

  20. My prayer is 'DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO TO ME TO GET ME TO HEAVEN'. I will never underestimate God and his mercy and his providential goodness. He only gives us what we need to get there!
     

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