Garabandal Objections: "closed till after the Feast of Assumption"

I tend to agree with you Garabandal (unusual I know).

I do think there may be a little more gravity to Garabandal than your contribution at first suggests - esp for the non-believers here.
Our Lady (if she did appear which I believe she did) is not want to do things of no consequence.

I think we all accept that Apparitions (of the stature of Fatima, Lourdes etc) are somehow only made possible by dint of the "expenditure" of much spiritual "energy" accumulated by much preceding human suffering, sacrifices and merit.
It must be to some great purpose if true.

I think we can recognise three different phases wrt Garabandal if it is true - each having a different purpose.
(a) The graces for the world during the time of the Apparitions (only local to those visiting Garabandal).
(b) The graces for the world at and after "the end times" (the Warning/The Miracle/The possible Chastisement).
(c) The waiting time inbetween when the goings on and the message are to be spread (and hopefully acted upon in terms of the urgent need for sacrifice and conversion.)

We are at point (c) which is soon to come to a close (if Garabandal is to be believed).
It seems to me that now the message and the well documented mystical goings on and major prophecies are available to anyone in the world who wants to know - it doesn't matter a hoot at the moment whether people believe in the well documented mystical goings on or not.

So whether people here believe or not at this stage - it doesn't really matter as Garabandal says.
But that doesn't mean Garabandal is done and dusted and can be safely ignored by unbelievers here - just as Glenn seems to say.

"Unbelievers" here have heard, the facts have been laid before you.
Our Lady has achieved her purpose thus far. Denial or incredulity is OK at this stage.
The challenge to the world has been laid down by Our Lady (allegedly) and cannot be retracted.
It will either be seen to come true in the next few years or it will fail.

If it does come true no sane person here will be able to deny the strange fact that it was all clearly prophesied 1961-1965.
Then not believing becomes much more difficult.

We now wait for God to vindicate Our Lady and the Seers (or not).
If it falls through, fine, Catholic believers and non-believers alike here are hopefully still doing their best to lead a Christian life (nothing new from Garabandal re that).

However if Garabandal proves true then we must all accept that the world of our time, unlike any other, is indeed on both a spiritual AND material knife edge of catastrophic proportions.
That is new, the Catholic Church does not teach that sort of historical specific or imperative.
Then our "work" begins in earnest if that is the case. It seems heroism may be required of many if it is true.

If true it would mean that Our Lady is so troubled she has communicated to us all personally to lift our game. It is funny how we often have faith enough to know we need to change or improve our lives. Yet...we cannot do it for our own sake, we cannot do it because Jesus via the imperfect temporal Church wants us to...yet if we reasonably knew that the Woman from Heaven cares enough to personally bend down and ask us to - many more will. Its not a new teaching, but a new incentive.

 

Glad my nonsensical posts make life interesting for you - Mac is one with you on that .

FS call me a stickler if you need to - but I like to define my religious key words (like "mystical" and "saint") consistently and according to tradition - Catholic tradition.

Sure, anybody can define "saint" or "mystic" according to their own pet theories and make personal sense of any conclusions wrt those words as they wish.
But when we come to dialogue or discuss these things with others ... if we don't share the same relatively fixed vocab then we may as well be speaking foreign languages to each other...

So no, I don't think we are all "saints" in the way you seem to be saying here.
Sure, I see you are using the NT meaning of "saint" (which does not mean that person is destined for heaven or even of heroic virtue). That's fine.

But then you also want to include the modern Catholic understanding of "Saint" as well (someone confirmed as such by the Catholic Church after death) and therefore of heroic virtue and who went directly to heaven without need for purification.
You seem to go further and assume that even canonised saints, by that fact alone, have a confirmed mystical connection with heaven and with revelation and every word they uttered re heaven, earth or prophecy is true. This of course is not what the Catholic Church teaches at all.

We all know contemporaneous "saints" throughout Catholic history have erred on key points of later defined doctrine and even with each other re significant religious/political concerns of their day.
Sure, "the holy saints link us ignorant sinners directly to heaven" model of the mystical is no more false than telling kids that babies grow inside mummy's tummy.
Hopefully our understanding of "tummy" gets a bit more sophisticated by the time we are teenagers - so too with how the "mystical" works.

So no, all too wishy washy for me when you say "we have all been touched by the mystical."
Sure, we Catholics all believe we have experienced or met a power greater than ourselves - but then so have members of Alcoholics Anonymous.
So what? That doesn't guarantee anything about "truth" or prophecy or personal "Apparitions."


If you are saying that paranormal phenomena of the Saints (which is what most people mean by "mystical" in this context)
prove the authenticity of Catholicism then that is certainly where we part ways.
Catholicism, I believe, stands or falls on the reality of the Resurrection - as St Paul teaches.

I really have no idea how that relates to what I stated above or why you have difficulties with it.

The gist of my original observation was that not everything reported by a Seer in good faith, even a later canonised one, is necessarily what was communicated to them from Heaven.
That is a fundamental of Mystical Theology (as well summarised by Cardinal Ratzinger re Fatima). Imagination and suggestion can get in the way.

That is why it is possible that the "Joey Prophecy" (really a minor side show) may not really be from Heaven - yet this would not necessarily affect Conchita's veracity wrt the "main event."

Its all common sense to me and clearly taught by our Church - but it sounds subversive of Catholic Faith to you for some reason .

 

Hang on there Mac.
Yes we all know there are at least another 7 old chestnuts that "disprove" Garabandal but lets take them one at a time.

 

#1 - Saints

We are entering into the age of simplicity

1. All those that believe in Our Lord Jesus Christ and follow His path...are saints.
2. Even though the Church doesn't proclaim you a saint...that does not necessarily mean you are not a saint. (Judgement). The Church can only proclaim a saint if they are 99.9% sure the person is in heaven.
3. Just by the individual believing in Our Lord Jesus Christ (faith) - this grace brings us into the mystical. (Prayer, Eucharist, Sacraments)
4. The most basic definition of sainthood is that You have passed judgement and are allowed to enter heaven.
5. If we are following Our Lord Jesus Christ here on earth - we are trying to become saints on earth. Some saints, by the Grace of God have reached great levels, while others might be at the beginning of their journey.

I do not assume or have stated

Blue stated "assume that even canonised saints, by that fact alone, have a confirmed mystical connection with heaven and with revelation and every word they utter re heaven or prophecy is true. This of course is not what the Catholic Church teaches at all."

You made that assumption

You try to say my simplicity (in my writing style) is not acceptable in Catholic Dialogue. That is your opinion, it seems Papa Francis is leading us into the age of simplicity. I am the last to say - mystical experience is primarily "paranormal".

Blue stated "Hopefully our understanding of "tummy" gets a bit more sophisticated by the time we are teenagers - so too with how the "mystical" works. So no, all too wishy washy for me when you say "we have all been touched by the mystical."

As members of the Catholic Church, we do touch the mystical. Its just (by the Grace of God) some reach higher levels then others. I believe the most simplest mystical experiences are much more powerful then those so called "paranormal experience" ...but that is another thread.

Yes Blue - i write like a third grader but i am not wishy washy. I have strong opinions on God and base my spirituality on the concept that we are all called to be saints. My spirituality is strongly influenced - that saints and the mystical are much closer then we think. I do not have pet theories or assumptions - if i have stated anything that is against Catholic teachings please forgive me. But as of today i seem to be in accordance with the Catholic Church.

Brother al

 

SF you don't write like a third grader but you do lose focus easily .
What has the above to do with my small point that you originally had issues with...

 

BH - this is a prophetic statement if ever I read one and I happen to think this is at the heart of all of the warnings from heaven that either we repent or face the consequences of our sin. If WW1 was a 'punishment for sin' and if don't improve a 'second more terrible one will break out' (Fatima) --- what awaits at our door this time when the time for mercy runs out because judgement is at the door - only the annihilation of nations.

 

Charlie's latest post at Next Step:
Sometime over 15 years ago I told my priests that my angel had told me that when the Storm set in, the most important power satan would have is that of deception, that is, the power to lead people into rebellion by actively mimicking a sort of pious orthodoxy. For many decades leading up to the period of 'the rumblings,' his most important power was seduction - to persuade people that objective good was actually evil and objective evil a positive good. The rumblings began in 2000 - and during their brief period (about a decade), I reported, satan's most important power would be that of terror - which would manifest itself as large-scale institutionalized terror. We have entered the period when deception is the primary tool. As usual with things I am told, it is taking some turns I had not expected.

I am rather baffled why the death of Joey Lomangino a few months ago has set so many advocates of the Garabandal apparitions (http://www.garabandal.org/) in such turmoil. Garabandal was a series of Marian apparitions in a remote Spanish hamlet for four years from 1961-1965. The heart of the messages was that great turmoil was coming upon the world, that at some indeterminate point in the close future there would be a Warning, or Illumination of Conscience from heaven so that all men would know the state of their souls. After that would come a Miracle, which will be marked by a permanent visible supernatural sign above a grove of pine trees in Garabandal. If the world does not repent of its grievous offenses after the Miracle, a great and terrible Chastisement will be visited upon mankind. Four girls were visionaries of this series of appearances. All but one, Conchita, ceased to have visions after the last visitation in 1965.




Joey Lomangino, who was incurably blind, died on June 18, 2014, on the 53rd Anniversary of the first apparition at Garabandal.

Joey Lomangino was an American man who was profoundly moved by Garabandal and became a tireless advocate for it. Joey was incurably blind. Conchita told him in a letter that Our Lady had told her in a vision he would be given his sight back and the first thing he would see would be the Miracle. Conchita said that her understanding of the term, "new eyes," used in the vision was eyes as we know them and "not necessarily spiritual vision." Since Joey died without having been given new eyes, those who opposed the messages of Garabandal are enthusiastic and many who believed those messages are shaken. The Church has not approved the apparitions, nor has it condemned them. Contrary to what many think, that is the way the Church (properly) handles almost all such events. Some it condemns outright. Those that are potentially authentic are rarely approved until long after the events are over. In fact, the "fruit" of such a potentially authentic event; conversions, vocations, renewed lives, healings are an important part of what the Church uses to discern a positive disposition as to authenticity - and that takes time. Thus, the faithful are free to believe or disbelieve an event the Church has not condemned. Though the Church has not made a formal ruling on Garabandal, several great saints of recent vintage, including St. Padre Pio and St. John Paul, held it in much respect and affection.

I am firmly in the camp of those who believe in the authenticity of Garabandal, though I also believe it the most misinterpreted set of apparitions of modern times, even by the remaining active visionary, Conchita. No, I do not think there is deception in her. A major purpose of prophecy is to extend our vision, which is so short-sightedly fixed on what is passing away, into the eternal. Let us suppose that, as a boy, George Washington was visited by an angel and told he would become a great general. If, hearing that, Washington went to bed that day convinced the prophecy was a lie because he had not become a great general, the fault would lie not in the prophecy, but in the scope of his vision. (This did not actually happen. I made it up to illustrate a point). Many of the most intense visions come with extravagantly symbolic images and language. When an authentic prophecy is accomplished, it is accomplished both on earth and in heaven. It may very well be that it is accomplished in the day-glo colors in which the visionary saw it in heaven, but it usually comes in pale pastels here.Char

 

Ancient Jews used to speculate on the magnificent raiment of the Messiah when He came, the stunning impressiveness of His physique; the armies He would raise and how all would fall in terror and awe before Him. When He came He looked and acted like...a man. And in His glorious magnificence He was...a common tradesman, a carpenter. He did not hang out with the pious and the learned, pondering fine points of the Torah or the Law, congratulating them on their learning and piety. No, He was rather dismissive of them, often rebuking them for their vanity, occasionally humiliating them, and sometimes blistering them for robbing ordinary people of hope. Even worse, the people He did hang out with were largely from the ancient equivalent of biker bars and red-light districts - and He made these His most trusted disciples. He defied every single expectation they had for what He would be like. Rather than learn from Him, they held fast to the expectations they had erected - and crucified Him as an obvious fraud. Even most of His trusted followers lost hope and were scattered for a time after the crucifixion, for this defied even their modified expectations of the Messiah...until He rose again...and His disciples saw that their impoverished expectations could not have begun to imagine the reality of Him until He came and accomplished all.

In the Book of Job, Job's pious friends spend the whole book defending God against Job's complaints and urgently scolding him to repent of his sins. When God comes, He is so angry with the friends that have seemed to defend Him against Job's complaints He refuses to even hear their prayers - and insists they must ask Job to pray for them before He will forgive them. With all His complaints, Job was actively engaged with the Living God. His friends were merely engaged with their expectations of what God should be like.

The frustrated expectations over what should have happened at Garabandal seem not to have led to much humility, but the exposition of even more arbitrary expectations expressed as iron rules.

One says the mark of authenticity in a prophet or visionary is that he is never wrong. This is said in order to disqualify the visionaries involved. Well, that would disqualify a host of Biblical prophets, too. Years ago I did a timeline on Old Testament prophecies and when they were fulfilled. Often a prophesied battle, victory, or event would be correct but off by three to five or more years. I took a little comfort in that, as time is what I have struggled most with in interpreting what heavenly visitors mean. St. Joan of Arc was wrong almost as often as she was right. But the things she was right about were so ridiculously improbable it is like criticizing someone who successfully predicted the winning lottery numbers only 60% of the time. Her work required her not only to be passionate, but to inspire others to passionate resolve. Trust me, telling people, "Well, we usually win, but today we are going to get our clock cleaned," would not have helped her win battles. Sometimes, she had to rouse herself to belief in things she was not certain of in order to inspire others.

Then I read people writing about what an authentic saint must be like, once he embraces God's purpose - in order to dismiss potentially authentic visionaries. Those descriptions are remarkably monochromatic, usually resembling the life of the speaker's favorite saint - and would require the dismissal of a host of existing saints from the canon. Which begs the question, what is the purpose of God revealing a canon of saints to us in the first place?

Contrary to popular belief, the Church has no power whatsoever to confer sainthood on anyone. What power the Church does have is to infallibly recognize some small few saints God has made and proclaim them to the faithful. A saint is not honored by the recognition nor is he dishonored if he is not among those so infallibly recognized. Saints are already in heaven. Our reverence or scorn for them here affects them not a whit - though it can affect us dramatically. I cheer when a John Paul is recognized because it validates and confirms something that rings powerfully true and meaningful to me. That is how it is with any saint that is recognized. Those who had advocated him are honored and take heart - and those who had not known or paid attention learn. That leads us to the heart of the answer. God leads the Church to recognize and reveal some few of the abundant saints to us to comfort and to guide us - and to teach us God's way. The canon of the saints is not for them, but for us.

 

The variety in the saints is simply astonishing and abundant. There are virgins, parents, children, martyrs, warriors, contemplatives, kings, peasants, hermits...their temperaments range from the gentle to the tart-tongued to those who struggle constantly with a hot temper. Some are stunningly pure from childhood, some are reckless rakes until they find God, some retain a certain bold streak of wildness all their lives. Some are just flat out mysterious. Consider King David, a man who God, Himself, said was a man after His own heart. And yet, except for writing Psalms, David spent almost all his waking moments throughout his life warring, wenching or wining. The variety in saintly types mirrors the variety in mankind, itself. God shows us that He can and will use our authentic personality whatever our circumstances to lead people to Him. When you empty yourself of vanity and fill yourself with God, you do not lose your personality; you enhance it. Every saint's soul lives the Magnificat: their soul magnifies the Lord - and in the process, the Lord magnifies their soul.

 

How often then does God defy expectations by doing something new, by calling and sending precisely what is needed just when it is needed? When France was about to perish from the earth, God called forth and sent a teenage girl, St. Joan of Arc, to rouse and rescue the nation. When men were overcomplicating theology or abandoning it altogether, God sent a little cloistered nun, St. Therese of Lisieux, to show a Little Way and help the world fall in love anew. When the Church was being torn apart by strife and war, God sent a tough nut who ministered to popes with kindness - and sometimes with a verbal cane - in St. Catherine of Sienna. You can go on and on. God always fits whom He sends to the age and needs to which He sends them. He is always startling, fresh and new. And all He sends follow Mary's lead...for whatever their personality and temperament, their souls magnify the Lord in ways that ordinary people feel, relate to and rejoice in.

So we often fail to recognize authentic visionaries, saint or prophecies not because they are not what they should be, but because our vision is too constrained and our expectations are not what they should be. When we get vested in our own expectations, it tempts us to pride AND to disobedience. I know this from experience. From about 10 years old until my mid-20s I was given many visions about unimportant things. On almost all, I completely misinterpreted them, recognizing them only when they happened. God did not do this to be cruel to me...but to pound into my thick, vain skull that His ways are not our ways...even His ways of seeing - and to teach me to look beyond this veil into eternity to see what was important in such things - and what they meant at the heart of the matter. It taught me to be very careful and deliberate in interpretation, not to go running off after the first, second or even third thing that popped into my head, to be aware, knowing that I probably would be wrong about some parts of it - and that even when I wasn't, I probably would not understand the fulness of what I was shown, even in little things, until I have passed on to the next life. Given that discipline, it startles me now to hear people talk with such confident certainty about such things - particularly given our poor race's very poor record of understanding such things throughout history.

In the case of Joey's death, Christians are nearly unanimous in believing that when we pass on to the next life, we leave our infirmities behind. Unless you will see no further than this life, Joey is no longer blind. The first thing we see when entering eternity is whatever Christ wants us to see - and when we enter eternity, we are not bound by the constraints of time. Joey can see now - and it is between Christ and him whether the Lord showed Him the Miracle that is to come. I don't know...I just know that there is nothing in Joey's death that is contradictory to that particular prophecy. There have been failed pronouncements, such as that a certain deceased priest's body would be found incorruptible at the site. It was not. There are bonafide miracles, particularly a Eucharistic one that was filmed. Most believers wait for the Warning to come in a blazing moment. I think it has come and is nearly finished, without people recognizing it for what it is. People get caught up in time...but time means something different in heaven than what it does here - and language must be assessed as to whether it is literal or symbolic. Unless I am told a specific time - such as the rescue coming late in 2017 - I do not assume a day, an hour, a week, or a month to mean what we mean here. At Easter of 2008 at the Vigil, the Lord appeared to me and said, "Now the hour of darkness comes upon the world. But be not afraid. The darkness shall not prevail." I was given an image of the Garden of Gethsemane, the sense that this was prelude to the world's passion. I did not assume that meant the world would be plunged into darkness within a few days. The few problems with Garabandal have all been problems of interpretation and our own myopia, unable to see past the boundaries of this world.

Our determination to defend our expectations can - and often does - lead us into disobedience. Just over a month ago I wrote a piece criticizing our Bishops for often wasting time making pronouncements on purely political matters that are the proper purview of the laity's prudential judgment, responsibility and authority. Many were heartened by that column. But then the shoe was on the other foot. Shortly after that article I got briefly caught up in controversy over the 3rd Secret of Fatima and whether a proper consecration of Russia had been made or not. I never did quite get across what was the center point of my objection to the controversy raging over it. I am not terribly curious about whether Pope St. John Paul and the Bishops were objectively right in how they handled it. I am chiefly concerned with whether gave it careful, prayerful consideration and acted in good faith. If they did, then God will correct any errors they made in time just as surely as He corrects our own in our little work when we acknowledge Him. More to the point, such matters are properly within the Bishops' purview - their prudential judgment, responsibility and authority - not mine. We all can advise each other. I have asked priestly friends for advice on purely political matters - and some priestly friends have asked my advice on purely spiritual matters. But in each case, we knew and respected who had prudential responsibility for such matters. When laymen, at the top of their lungs, seek to correct the hierarchy on matters that legitimately are its responsibility and in which it has acted in good faith with due consideration, it is the equal and opposite abuse of Bishops opining with terminal authority on purely political matters.

It is important because we are in serious times. Everyone needs to get to their battle stations and perform their duty with love, fortitude and resolve. Every time someone abandons their particular station to go tell someone at another how to do their job, it opens up a fresh vulnerability. If enough do it, we are sunk. With various controversies flaring up and raging between some very pious people, I see now that the devil is using an imitation of piety, itself, to lure people away from their battle stations. It is not so that we will make better political decisions at the behest of our Bishops - or so that our Bishops will make better spiritual decision at the behest of the loudest of the laity - but so that satan may more easily ensnare those who have left their duty station and forgotten their lawful obligations.

So I tell you two things. First, resolutely man your duty station. Do not be lured into contentious arguments over what is not your job in the first place. Second, be a bit less certain of your expectations. If a prophesy or visionary is not what they should be, they shall have to account to God for it. But if you loudly attack them because your expectations are not what they should be, you will have to account to God for it. And again, it is why I say over and over that you should stick to the safe course of a simple way: take the next right step and be a sign of hope to those around you.

 

If Conchita died before announcing the Miracle 8 days in advance, then I am afraid that Garabandal's primary prophecy would have failed.

While the message of any apparition is important, for an apparition to be found worthy of belief there must be a supernatural (as opposed to preternatural) event that convinces the local Bishop of the supernatural veracity of the apparition: this has happened in the case of every approved apparition. Such a supernatural event has not yet transpired with regard to Garabandal - that's why the Church has been unable to confirm it as supernatural in origin.

But getting back to the Joey Prophecy and a resurrection (or "raising"): such an occurrence is not a cop-out and is clearly the only way that I can imagine the prophecy being fulfilled if we are to understand the original prophecy of Joey having new eyes as being literal - which is, I believe, how everyone always understood it, including Conchita. Resurrections were actually quite common, and well documented, during the early days of the Church and during the Middle Ages. Perhaps they are as not as common today because we live in a society in which a large part of the "civilized" world has become convinced that God is a delusion and have acted accordingly.

And, certainly, a public "raising" is much less fantastic and improbable then the Warning and Miracle - two events that have global significance.

 

Richard you said : " Such a supernatural event has not yet transpired with regard to Garabandal - that's why the Church has been unable to confirm it as supernatural in origin. ".

Nothing could be further from the truth than this. Do you know how this "Commission" arrived at its' response ? No one does ! Their own priests, doctors ,came back believers ! The General of the Civil Guard in all his reposts questioned this Commissions' investigation ,because THEY REFUSED TO INTERVIEW EVEN ONE PERSON ! How in God's name do you arrive at a decision ( that is ofcourse unless you've made up your mind already or you are trying to hide something ) without interview ANY OF THE VISIONARIES, THEIR PARENTS or the HUNDREDS OF WITNESSES TO THE SUPERNATURAL EVENTS ?

 

COMMISSION BIASED
1st- The Commission was dead set against approving this apparition from day one ! Did you know that the very priest who they sent to investigate, came back a believer ! When that didn't work, they sent doctors, but the doctors were dumb founded as to how the girls in ecstasy were impervious to pain ! They were burned with matches, stuck with needles, pinched, has sand thrown in their eyes (but didn't blink) darn near torture ! But they too failed to explain this as a "natural event" or the girls imagination. Now the Commission is so mad, they even REFUSE the testimony OF POLICE CIVIL GUARDS. The worst part, they REFUSED to interview A SINGLE PERSON ! There were hundreds of witnesses who begged to testify, and they would not hear them for fear of convincing the public it WAS TRUE ! So when the original Bishop's finding is not favorable for approval, many lost interest in Garabandal and worse yet, our Blessed Mother's messages.

2nd- Now add the second message of the Blessed Mother that said "Many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them " WOW, so the very people in charge of the investigation, are being called out by Mary, and they don't like being "knocked off their pedestal " of reverence in the peoples eyes. And you wonder why the approval did not happen then.

Thank God, that the likes of Pope Paul VI, Padre Pio, kept hope alive because of their belief in the early days, or this would have been dead and buried. As the evidence mounted that Mary was appearing, the best that they could do is say that the apparitions were " Non-constat de supernaturalitate - It is not certain that the events are of supernatural origin. ". This is just a few reasons the early generations had little interest ,until Joey Lomangino went to confession to Padre Pio ,and came back to America and started his apostolate.

Now it is up to us to get this message out before the Warning & Miracle ! We have the enormous advantage of the internet and media that no other age had. God has given us the tools to awaken the world to the truth of our Lady's messages NOW, before its too late ! Do all you can.


Testimony from the Civil Guard Commander Juan Seco. Dr. Morales, tries to prevent apparition ! Sunday, July 2nd:
The Calleja is full of people praying the rosary. Everyone wants to be there when the ecstasy happens. The second in command of the Nansa Electrical Company, Mr. Rocha, was next to me. He had come up to the village with Dr. Morales and Dr. Piñal, both of whom had been sent as part of the Committee organized by Bishop Fernández. I remember that Mr. Rocha told me, “This afternoon, the visionaries won’t go up to the Cuadro to see the vision.” I responded that in supernatural affairs, the doctor doesn’t get any say in the matter.
I went around the bend in the Calleja and saw that they were about halfway up the path. I stayed there waiting for them to go up to the Cuadro because Dr. Morales was going to try to impede the apparition. However, to Mr. Rocha’s surprise the visionaries went up to the Cuadro unaffected by Dr. Morales’ attempt to hypnotize them. All four of them, on their knees, began to pray the first mystery of the rosary and right away they had the vision. Dr. Morales arrived on the scene and wasn’t able to prevent the apparition.

The four visionaries cried out together, “The Blessed Virgin!” At first they thought that it was Our Lady of Perpetual Help, but later they realized that it was Our Lady of Mount Carmel, because she carried the Child Jesus and had a scapular on her wrist. The Blessed Virgin was surrounded by two angels, whom Conchita counted out-loud. Conchita also said “what an eye!” and after the vision we learned that it was the Most Holy Trinity, in the form of an eye. During the vision the girls started to cry, Mari Cruz more than the others. One of the doctors grabbed her by the neck to try to turn her face away but he wasn’t able to. I thought that he hurt her because I heard her neck crack, but she was unharmed.
The girls and their parents were never interviewed by the Commission !

 

But how reliable is this Commission ? Let the witness speak:
Upon presenting the memoirs of Jaun Alveraz Seco, Brigadier Chief of the Civil Guard, and the man responsible for maintaining order in the village during the apparitions, Anotnio Pacio, M.S.C. Professor at the University of Barcelona writes:
“ I would like to only state one thing to forestall the objections on many based on various official communiqués coming from the Diocese of Santandar. These communiqués should have been preceded by a substantial interrogation of the myriad witnesses”
“Among these witnesses , one who stands out is Juan Alvarez Seco, Brigadier Chief of the Civil Guard,who is the author of these memoirs. He was present from the beginning to 1962,and at 1965 at the time of the Message, and he had the duty of informing his superiors and the Civil Governor and all that was going on in Garabandal, while at the same time he had to maintain order in the village. “
“Well, none of the Commissioners, who rejected the supernatural events at Garabandal, ever asked him to testify, nor did they deign to even interview him, who was the “official informant” to the authorities. This detail suffices to illustrate the “true and impartiality “ with which the various episcopal commissions endeavored to inform themselves. Jaun Seco : “ THEY WERE NOT INTERESTED IN BELIEVEING WITNESSESS, BUT ONLY THE UNBELIEVING. THEY WANTED AT ALL COST, TO DISCREDIT THE MANISFISTATIONS, AND IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THIS, THAT HAD TO ELIMINATE ANY WITNESS,INCLINED TO BE FAVORABLE, NO MATTER WHAT HIS COMPENTENCY”.

From “The Village Speaks” pgs 69 - 70.

Calls investigation a “farce www.ourlady.ca/info/drMoralesNow.htm

 

DR. MORALES REVERSES HIS OPINION ON GARABANDAL

He even goes so far as to say that there never was a formal investigation — that the whole thing was a farce !

http://www.ourlady.ca/info/drMoralesNow.htm



Dr. Luis Morales changes mind on Garabandal

On September 3, 1978, my first visit with Dr. Morales was recorded in its totality with his consent and lasted two hours. During the interview he was somewhat reserved in explaining his change of position on Garabandal and finally, because of my insistence, he said, "Now I see the existential reality of Our Lady in Garabandal. I think of Garabandal as Fatima: a gift of Divine Providence for humanity. Garabandal truly is a gift to us from Christ through his Mother..." At the end of the interview he answered my last question by saying, "Oh, yes! Garabandal has been a manifestation of Divine Grace...!"
A typed copy of this conversation was presented to Bishop del Val. He reacted with a mixture of surprise and satisfaction to the change of opinion of Dr. Morales.
February 8, 1979, I had a second interview with Dr. Morales and found him calm, happier and very open. In this friendly atmosphere he answered my pointed questions by saying that he accepted Garabandal as supernatural and that the messages came directly from God.

 

BISHOP DAL VAL : REVERSES HIS PERSONAL OPINION ON GARABANDAL APPARITIONS

In 1982, Bishop del Val was diagnosed with prostate cancer and underwent an operation in Santander performed by Dr. Andres Garcia de Tunon, a believer in Garabandal While he was recuperating in the hospital, he received a visit from Mari Loli, one of the visionaries of Garabandal, who had been driven there in the car of a French priest, Father de Baillencourt and his secretary, Christina Bocabeille.
The details of what happened are very secretive (because he was at the time still Bishop, and Garabandal was still not approved, and he didn't want to reveal in writing what happened so he could not be reprimanded ). When Loli went to see him, he said that her visit with him was a great comfort. It brought back many beautiful memories about the times that he himself witnessed her ecstasies as well as the other three girls but it was only after she gave him a KISSED Crucifix by Our Blessed Mother that she had with her that he made a complete recovery. After having completed the operation on the Bishop in 1982, Dr. Tunon went to see him in his hospital room during the recovery period. "I was sitting on the edge of the bed when he said to me, 'I, Juan Antonio del Val Gallo, believe in Garabandal. But as bishop I can't say that.'"

 

Anyone who has bothered to read and study the Commission's actions knows they did everything in their power to discredit these apparitions,BUT GUESS WHAT HAPPENED , THEY FAILED ,because once the Vatican got involved and CARDINAL ALFREDO OTTAVIANI ,Prefect for more than twenty years of the Sacred Congregation of the Faith, and Pope Paul VI got involved ,THE TRUTH CAME OUT !


CARDINAL OTTOVIANI first listened to Conchita in January 1966, at the Vatican. The initiatives that the Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith took, right after his conversations with the visionary, facilitating her meeting Pope Paul VI, in private, allows us to suppose, however, that his opinion was already favorable. . . Not, however, without mentioning how Jacinta herself was to be introduced to Cardinal Ottaviani, in 1975, for we know the astonishing exhortation he then addressed to her: "We must pray a great deal, Jacinta, so that the Church may acknowledge Garabandal," after . . . having told her that 'he believed in the supernatural character of Garabandal'!

[From 'Garabandal' Book, page 234] OTTAVIANI


Pope Paul Vi after his meeting with Conchita said : , "Conchita, I, the Pope, bless you and with me the whole Church blesses you."

 

Glenn,

Lets try the other direction

Why has the church not approved Garabandal?

Brother al

 

Glenn, I am not saying that the investigation was perfect, but in these matters we must remain obedient to the local Bishop whether we agree with the outcome or not.

Now, with that said, i agree that the Church has not condemned Garabandal but for the sake of accuracy and obedience we must admit that the Church has also said that the supernatural veracity of Garabandal has not been proven: "non constat de supernaturalitate (it is not established supernatural).

I say all of this as someone who hopes that Garabandal is true and that the Warning and Miracle do come as an act of Mercy from God towards a World hell bent on its own destruction.