"Francis has been totally orthodox..can only be faulted by faulty reading"

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Proud2bRC Staff Member

    The pope has not taught error in an official magisterial document. But to claim he has been "totally orthodox" is, unfortunately, akin to believing in fairy tales, and destroys the credibility of those making the claim, who might otherwise be good and holy Catholics. Unfortunately, it's no longer a case of unqualified laity who are simply guilty of "faulty reading."

    Three of the highly qualified theologians and priests who authored this document also contribute to the onepeterfive.com website. (One of the signatories is a personal friend of mine, so my statement is not one of personal opinion not backed up by facts, but is grounded in well established documentation that is part of a canonical process in Rome):


    Theological Censures Against Amoris Laetitia Revealed

    The apostolic exhortation Amoris laetitia, issued by Pope Francis on March 19th 2016 and addressed to bishops, priests, deacons, consecrated persons, Christian married couples, and all the lay faithful, has caused grief and confusion to many Catholics on account of its apparent disagreement with a number of teachings of the Catholic Church on faith and morals. This situation poses a grave danger to souls.”

    So begins the 13-page document sent by an international group of Catholic theologians, pastors, historians, and scholars “to every one of the Cardinals and Patriarchs, of whom there are 218 living at present.”

    Though the document was intended to be viewed only by its ecclesiastical recipients and not the general public, it has now been published in full on the website of The Australian by Tess Livingstone, who is also the biographer of Cardinal George Pell. (There is no indication in the story as to the source of the leaked document, but the professional connection between Livingstone and a prominent member of the curia is worth noting in this regard.)

    Dr. Joseph Shaw, one of the signatories and the group’s spokesman, previously revealed to Claire Chretien of LifeSiteNews the reasoning behind the originally-intended secrecy of the content of the appeal and its signatories, as well as the public revelation of the effort’s existence:

    “The appeal and cover letter are directed to the cardinals for action in the first place, and we have taken the view that the Sacred College should be allowed to consider the substance of the document and the action to be taken in response to it before its contents are made public,” he said. “The censures are a detailed and technical theological document whose contents are not readily accessible to a non-specialist audience, and are easily misrepresented or misunderstood. Making the document public would impede the cardinals in their task by the media coverage and frequently uninformed debate and polemics it would raise.”

    Shaw continued, “At the same time it is important that Catholics who are troubled by some of the statements in Amoris Laetitia be aware that steps are being taken to address the problems it raises; hence the announcement of the document’s existence.”


    (Download the full cover letter here. Download the full theological analysis with censures here. Both links are to PDF files.)

    On the authority of Amoris Laetitia, the critique notes the conflict between the perceived and actual authority the exhortation possesses, and the subsequent change in behavior it is likely to elicit on the part of the faithful:

    The official character of Amoris laetitia enables it to pose a grave danger to the faith and morals of Catholics. Although an apostolic exhortation pertains normally or principally to the purely pastoral governing power, nevertheless, on account of the inter-connection of the powers of teaching and of government, it also pertains indirectly to the magisterial power. It can also contain directly magisterial passages, which are then clearly indicated as being such. This was the case for previous apostolic exhortations such as Evangelii nuntiandi, Familiaris consortio, and Reconciliatio et paenitentia.

    There is no obstacle as such to the Pope’s using an apostolic exhortation to teach infallibly on faith and morals, but no infallible teaching is contained in Amoris laetitia, since none of its statements satisfy the strict requirements for an infallible definition. It is thus a non-infallible exercise of the papal magisterium.


    Read the rest at the link.

    Anyone making the claim that this pope is "totally orthodox" and any other understanding is the result of "faulty reading" can no longer throw about such assertions without refuting the documentation of these theologians first.

    They cannot be accused of "faulty reading" or error based in mistranslation or media spin.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
    janet Walton likes this.
  2. janet Walton

    janet Walton Angels

    "But if he will not listen to the Church, let him be to you like the pagan and the tax collector." (Mt 18:17). Someone who does not listen to the Pope, does not listen to the Church.
  3. BrianK

    BrianK Proud2bRC Staff Member

    No one can credibly or blithely say to these eminent theologians and priests, "Who are YOU to question the pope?!"

    These men are exceptionally qualified and have the standing and the moral obligation to do so. Anyone who wants to say such things - to anyone, even lowly laity - must thoroughly refute the points in this document first.

    Woe to those Churchmen who remain silent in the face of this affront to Faith and Morals. They will answer to God for their infidelity and cowardice.
  4. Sorrowful Heart

    Sorrowful Heart Principalities

    What if what the Pope says is not in line with the CDF? Such as suggesting people who are co-habitating or re-married can take communion. Or the suggesting the use of contraceptives is ok in light of the zika virus in Brazil. Such acts are a mortal sin, but according to your logic if the Pope says its ok then it no longer becomes a mortal sin. Your logic also suggests that those who disagree would be defiant to the Church. Good thing the CDF demands that the Magisterium be servants that expound on the faith, and not change it.

    P.S. I have yet to hear of a situation where the re-married or cohabitating should receive the blessed sacrament.
  5. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    Janet, may I humbly suggest you do not get involved with this lot. It is a waste of time. I commend you for your courage as you will have seen the insults and slander they dish out even to Our Holy Father. We have tried our best to exhort them in their error. Perhaps now they should be left alone to suffer its effect. They have brought this on themselves.
  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    So if a Pope were to give me tip for a horse at the 4:30 at Goodwood tomorrow I would be backing a winner Janet? (Since you appear to be suggesting he always speaks for the Church and is always inerrant? )

    Maybe not. :)

    On July 14, 1555, Pope Paul IV issued the papal decree Cum Nimis Absurdum. Now I am assuming, to follow through your logic of Popes never doing anything wrong you are going to back him to the hilt on this no matter what it says.

    What did it say?

    'It subjected Jews under his dominion to myriad restrictions and humiliations, most notably forcing them to live in ghettos. Jews in Rome were confined to a ghetto, which sat next to the River Tiber. Rome’s Jewish population remained in the ghetto until the decree was abolished in the late nineteenth century.

    Pope Paul IV (1476-1559) was an unusually rigid and anti-Jewish pontiff, and this decree was one of his first actions, issued just two months after becoming pope. In addition to relegating Jews to live in ghettos that were enclosed and locked at night, the pope also decreed that Jews were not allowed to own property and were required to identify themselves by wearing a yellow head covering. Professionally, Jews were limited to primarily low-level trade positions. Jewish doctors were not allowed to have Christian patients.

    Construction of the ghetto was funded by the Jews themselves. It was built in an area notorious for flooding, and had only two gates through which Jews could enter and exit. Buildings in the tightly packed ghetto reached up to seven stories, permitting very little natural light. It became common practice for other European notables to either confine Jews to certain urban and rural areas, isolating them from non-Jews and causing them to live as close but oppressed communities, or to expel them en masse.'


    Do you thin Janet , when Pope Paul IV issued this decree he was speaking for the Church?
    Or was he just a nasty old anti semite, acting out of prejudice and spite?


    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
    Heidi likes this.
  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    The difficulty in proper discernment here has nothing to do with Pope Francis himself per se. The difficulty comes through a form of idol worship that seeks to set up Popes as some kind of demi Gods .

    Popes have been murderers and mass mudrerers, rapists, thiefs, brigands knaves, fools, you name it , they've been there, done that. Read your history.

    Get real.

    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
    little me likes this.
  8. janet Walton

    janet Walton Angels

    "What if what the Pope says is not in line with the CDF? Such as suggesting people who are co-habitating or re-married can take communion."

    No he hasn't said this.
    Jeanne and fallen saint like this.
  9. janet Walton

    janet Walton Angels

    I never said he was perfect..St Peter wasn't perfect.
    Jeanne and fallen saint like this.
  10. janet Walton

    janet Walton Angels

    Of course we do know that not one of the popes, even the evil ones, have ever been able to
    change the doctrines of the Church.
    Jeanne likes this.
  11. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    Don't let them get to you Janet. They are wrong. Very very wrong. They will twist your words as they twist the words and ways of The Holy Father so out of shape that the truth they contain cannot be seen. God bless you and preserve you Janet.
  12. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    I have used the ignore button on the gang of four. Perhaps you are better able for them than me but take care.
  13. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    The ignore button does not seem to be working on Padraig. Perhaps he has given himself immunity.
  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Yes of course and also of course no one on the forum has suggested Pope Franics has done . That would be heresy of course. If anyone suggested such a thing on the forum they would be expelled at once.

    But you did not post this , you simply wrote that what a Pope says, he says on behalf of the Church . This of course is itself false. As I am sure you on reflection you will at once agree .

    I am presuming you mispoke?

    ..and I quote.

    '. Someone who does not listen to the Pope, does not listen to the Church.'

    Whereas of course the Pope does not always speak on behalf of the Church. Such as the occasion when Pope Paul banished the Jews of Rome to a ghetto.
  15. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Joe please explain the logic of being on a website of a person you wish to ignore?:rolleyes:

    It appears to be the internet equivalent of walking for miles to sit down uninvited in the living room of room of someone you claim not to want to talk to, sitting down in an armchair and having a good stare at them.

    I never invited you here , you came here of your own free will.

    I am not forcing you to stay here. You can leave just when you like. When I deleted your membership you sent me emails begging to be let back in .

    Now you insult me by claiming to wish to press an ignore button.

    Well , Joe, I will show you how to press the ignore button, Joe. Leave my website. Go. Ignore me.

    You are not my prisoner. Go.

    Go away, I am not keeping you here. Go away.

    I am warning you Joe you are just an inch away from getting your insolent ass kicked of again for your damned cheek.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
    little me, Sorrowful Heart and Mac like this.
  17. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    Ahh thats better. Working now.
  18. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Be careful what you wished for Joe, you're banned.

    Sorrowful Heart likes this.
  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

    By the way , Janet Walton , I am perfectly aware of your activities on the internet. If you have come here planning some kind of cyber campaign against me, I hope you will at least have the decency of getting your facts and theology right.

    From your posts so far I very much doubt your intellectual and theological capacity to discriminate between othodoxy and hetrodoxy. But I doubt that will stop you from setting up your very ,very own anti Mother of God Forum website, just as have set up others. Janet Walton; Defender of the Right.

    I am not a fool Janet, I know your background.

    Tell me who appointed you in this quest? By what right to appoint youself my judge and jury in this way? But once having done so , why did you not approach me in a direct fashion and ask me questions directly? Why do you sneak about looking for evidence for the guilt you already ascribe to me? If you already believed me guilty, why then you will only ever find evidence of guilt

    Be careful , lest instead of being at the service of God and his Church you are about to attack an innocent person and are thus at the service of Satan.

    The Children of Light walk in the light, they do not sneak about in the Dark.

    May God forgive you for what you are about to do.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
    little me and Sorrowful Heart like this.
  20. padraig

    padraig New Member

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