Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Richard67, Nov 18, 2014.
Russia and the Taming of the Israelis
Russia’s unexpected decision to supply Syria with S-300 surface-to-air missile systems and to integrate Syria’s air defence within the Russian command calls for a quick reassessment of our views. It turned out that Russia is able to learn and respond in an unanticipated way. Yes, in the immediate aftermath of the Il-20 downing, the Russian reaction had been weak. The Russians agreed with Israelis that the plane had been hit by a Syrian S-200 missile. They provided the Israeli military with an opportunity to offer and defend their version of events, while Putin spoke of a “tragic chain of events”, apparently exculpating his Israeli partner.
I must admit I had thought that the Russians would accept the Israeli explanations, and the case would rest. This was the view of pro-Kremlin writers and bloggers, and they often know the mind of the Russian authorities. These guys and gals do not get their instructions directly from the Kremlin, nor do they have a consistent view of Russian interests nor an opinion of their own; usually they try to guess what the Kremlin will do next and build a defence line for it. If you watch them, you’ll get an idea of what the expectation.
They took a rather pro-Israeli line. Whoever called for a stronger response to the Israeli provocation, was called an “anti-Semite firebrand”. This is not as deadly a marker in Russia as it is in the West, but it still is not a great compliment, either. Some pro-Kremlin writers blamed the Syrians; so did the liberal opposition to Putin. Julia Latynina, the pet Russian writer of Western liberals, a Putin nemesis, a recipient of the Defender of Freedom Award, with hundreds of references in the Guardian and the , called the Syrians – “apes”. (The Russian anti-Putin liberals are racist beyond belief but they love Jews).
A pro-Kremlin English-language writer said that the Iranians (sic!) were to be blamed; perhaps they pushed the button and destroyed the Il. And Syrians surely were guilty as hell. He also ferociously attacked the experts who spoke of Israeli responsibility and called them “antisemites”. The chief editors of the Russian semi-official media apparently thought Putin wanted to forget about the whole business of the downed Il-20 as fast as possible. They promptly erased it from their agenda. Incredibly, on the next day the Russian media was practically free from any reference to the disaster. Only the hard old men of the opposition grumbled in their marginal online journals: “We are lost,” “Putin obeys his oligarchs,” “The Jewish lobby in Moscow won”, “Putin cares more of his Jewish friends than of the Russian soldiers”. But they were premature.
In Israel, the Ministry of Defence people rubbed their hands and said: We bombed all, we are bombing and we shall bomb as we find fit. They advised the Russians to blame Syria and accept the Israeli version of events. Israeli social networks rejoiced. But their joy was premature, too.
The first signal of something amiss was sent when the Russians refused to receive an Israeli high-level delegation in Moscow. Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defence Minister Lieberman proposed to fly to Moscow personally, but they were rebuffed. Only a military delegation led by the Israel Air Force Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin was allowed to come and present their version. It was found wanting. The Russian Ministry of Defence produced ample evidence that the Israelis knowingly caused the loss of the plane with all hands. Netanyahu had made a person-to-person call to President Putin, it was of no avail.
Apparently Putin was upset on a personal level with the Israeli attack. He is known for hating betrayal. He considered Netanyahu to be almost a personal friend, and the downing of the plane by this erstwhile friend grieved him a lot, so people close to the Kremlin intuit. There are less personal interpretations. In the same time the ruling (Putin’s) party United Russia suffered humiliating defeats in governors’ elections. 70% to 30% the incumbents were voted out, and representatives of strongly anti-Western coalition of Nationalists and Communists conquered those three districts. In the Armed Forces, the idea of letting bygones be bygones was rejected out of hand. The army demanded a stronger response.
Putin is the most pro-Western ruler Russia is likely to have; his successor will probably be more rigid to Western demands, while pro-Western elements (“liberals”) have a snowball-in-hell chance to come to power in Russia via the election booth. That’s why Putin has to watch his step to keep in line with his base, as any ruler does. He didn’t want to spoil relations with Israel, but freedom of action had to be denied to the Israeli Air Force.
There was a lull when the disaster of the downed plane completely disappeared from media, Russian or Western. It was not mentioned by the New York Times, it was not mentioned by the Russian newspapers. And after that, unexpectedly, the Russian Defence Minister Mr Shoygu made his announcement. Russia responded adequately, closing the sky over Syria, or at least over Western Syria, and activating its powerful GPS-jamming system off the Syrian coast. Israel has lost its right to bomb Syria at will.
The Russians said it will take them two weeks to deliver, install and make the system operative. I have heard that the system of up to eight S-300 had already been delivered by massive airlift a few days ago, with cargo planes landing in Syria every few minutes. Probably two weeks will be needed to install and activate the system...
...Now in Israel the response was of two kinds. The hot heads said Israel is not worried by S-300; they know how to deal with it, and if necessary, Israeli commandos will come and sabotage the system just in time for a massive air attack by Israeli bombers. Sensible people said Israel should try to repair relations with the Russian military. The Russians did a lot of what the Israelis asked them for, including removal of Iranian forces from the vicinity of Israeli borders (rather, armistice lines). A thorough investigation of the air disaster may uncover the mistakes and convince the Russians that they aren’t likely to occur again.
Netanyahu sounded like he was trying to minimise the strife with the Russians. After meeting with President Trump in New York, he said that he came with specific requests “and I received everything I wanted from him [Trump]. Our goal is to preserve the connection with Russia and on the other hand to defend Israel’s security against these threats.”
So, for good or bad, Israel is not going to break relations with Russia, and Russia is not going to go further, beyond sealing Syria’s sky for Israeli raids. If Israeli leadership will keep its fingers away from Syria, things may cool down. Otherwise, the results will be quite unpredictable.
In Israel, there aren’t many people at the top, apart of Netanyahu and Lieberman, who cherish their country’s involvement with Russia. For Israelis, Putin is one of many unsavoury leaders from Idi Amin to Orban their country has to play ball with. Russia is not popular with ordinary Israelis who prefer America or Germany. A lot of Israelis will be pleased with breakup of this connection. Immediately after the Russian decision had been announced, Haaretz had made its feelings clear: “In recent years, Russia has been caught lying or spreading disinformation about its role in a number of incidents, the most recent being its involvement in the U.S. presidential elections, the poisoning of the former Russian agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Britain, and the invasion of Crimea and eastern Ukraine. So it’s hard to believe that anyone but Syria and Iran will adopt the Russian version of last week’s events.” This is not a way one’s partner is usually described.
More conspiratorially minded Israelis opined that beyond downing of the Il, there was an Air Force plot against Netanyahu and Lieberman who are unpopular within the top echelon of IDF. Others say it was an American Secret Service plot to undermine Russian-Israeli connection.
For otherwise, why did the Israelis do that? Were they just careless and brutal, as is their wont? They didn’t give a damn about the Russians, and considered them a lesser breed, whose life is of little importance. This is a possible reading, quite consistent with their general attitude to strangers considered to be children of a lesser God.
On the other hand, it is possible that the whole Israeli raid had been staged to down the reconnaissance plane and to leave the Russians without its real-time intelligence data. In 1967, the Israelis bombed and sunk the USS Liberty, an electronic spy ship, the then equivalent of Il-20, for they did not want to have foreign eyes and ears in the area. But then, there was an ongoing full-scale war between Israel and Egypt, and the USS Liberty had been attacked just before the planned Israeli invasion of the Syrian Golan Heights.
Could it be that Israelis expected an attack by France, England and the US upon Syria on that night, an attack that did not materialise thanks to the Russian-Turkish agreement on Idlib? There was a British plane and a French frigate in the vicinity, and a whole lot of American ships.
The agreement on Idlib was a very important event, though Il-20 displaced it out of our collective memory. Putin and Erdogan reached a working compromise, thus avoiding almost unavoidable large scale hostilities. The White Helmets had already prepared a film with staged chemical attack upon Syrian children, but the agreement had made the attack improbable in the first place. It is possible that the American coalition assault had been postponed in the last moment, when the Russian plane had been already downed.
However, all is well that ends well. Russian decision to create practically a no-fly zone is a good decision, good for all. It is good for Russians as they learned that their Commander-in-Chief can make strong decisions. It is good for Syria, as they will suffer less of the Israeli bombardments. And it is really good for Israel, as this naughty child, a spoiled brat, a darling of America had to be forbidden to bother neighbouring children. The automatic missile defence system will provide a threat of spanking. The kid had been told that he is not allowed to kill neighbours. With its excessive aggressiveness multiplied by impunity, Israel has been spoiled, as anybody would. With this block, Israel can still become a mensch, and for this chance, thank you, Russia.
Will Tel-Aviv use this chance? The US will try to frustrate the Russian taming of Israel. John Bolton and Mike Pompeo already declared that no one may interfere with Israel’s divine right to freely bomb Syria. Will the Israeli lobby in America be able to neutralise Moscow’s decision and unhinge Israeli soul once again? Will they convince Putin to postpone his decision like they did in April, and a few years ago? I do not think so.
We can congratulate the leadership of Russia on the consistent, justified and well-balanced decision that may yet tame the Jewish shrew.
Not usually stupid but they certainly were in this case. Putin has openly warned 'traitors' on Russian TV that they will be killed (so he is either a murderer or a liar, but almost certainly both). Skirpl wasn't the first 'traitor' to be poisoned by the Russians or their friends on British soil (Markov, Litvinenko and others) and they probably won't be the last. (What has the UK to gain from killing good friends, no-one else would ever come over to us?). Putin was part of the organisation that attempted to assassinate JPII for goodness' sake. The Russians want to make sure that other 'traitors' know who did it so they employ methods that actually advertise their involvement because they know that the Russians will accept any old rot as the truth. It may have escaped your notice that opponents of Putin in Russia tend to end up flying out of windows, getting run down by 'hit and run' drivers etc. as well as being poisoned. The 'Pussy Riot' activist, Verzilov is being treated for poisoning in Germany having fled there from Russia as I type. Did Teresa May organise all those mysterious deaths and attempted murders?
It is Russian dissidents who have now positively identified one of the would be assassins as a named GRU colonel and will soon disclose the name of the other participant and his rank.
Putin is a murderous thug leading a country that has an economy half the size of the UK's (about the size of Spain's) but spends such an enormous proportion of the country's income on weaponry and cyber warfare so that he can pretend to be in the 'big league'. The Russians are not procreating and they die early because of poor health provision, the country will soon be on its knees economically and politically and the sooner the better for the rest of us.
Putin was part of the assassination on JPII?? LOL! You are embarrassing yourself. The rest of what you wrote is verbatim State Department talking points from Victoria Nuland and the other warmongering Neocons.
There’s zero evidence Putin poisoned the Skripals or the Litvinenko. Same could be said for MH17 and all the other provocations which have been directed towards Russia all these years. Britain refuses to allow an independent investigation into the Skripals, just as the Dutch refused to allow Russia to participate in the investigation into MH17. Russia is guilty until proven guilty by Neocon standards. This is a recipe for war. The West will have only itself to blame for this coming war. Indications coming from Russia following the Israeli provocation leading to the death of 15 Russian Special forces, is that the Russian Military has grown tired of Putin’s generosity and patience with the Wicked West. Given Team Neocon’s addiction to provoking Russia, I think the next provocation will come soon in Syria, but this time Shoigu is going to take the gloves off.
What of these reports that Trump favours a two-state solution for Palestine?
I have never heard of Victoria Nuland and am not aware of reading 'other warmongering Neocons' (whatever they are) and do not read US State Dept. briefings. It's Occam's Razor on this one, it looks like a duck, it quacks etc. I notice that you make no comment about Putin's warning to 'traitors' or the other numerous 'accidents' that seem to happen with alarming frequency to anyone who opposes Putin. Nor do you answer the point that Russia spends its money on arms and lets its citizens die in numbers that put it in the third world category for social care. He wants power more than he wants Russians to live long and healthy lives. Russians are a dying race, why?
There are moral stances being taken here in favour of alternative empires. We should all know not to put our trust in princes. This Irishman is well aware of his own country's fate at the hands of his local empire. Of course, those who write the history praise that particular empire for its wonderful contribution to justice and parliamentary democracy, all code for one of the most rapacious predators ever to have existed on the planet, using its 'justice' system to 'legitimise' the total expropriation and partial genocide of a nation that knew Christianity and civilisation long before it. Given the infernal damage and death inflicted by the various Russian tyrannies of the last century, the wicked Wilsonian intervention into the First World War, absolutely none of his business (the platform he won his second term on) and leading directly to the former, and the aggressive post-Reagan war-for-oil-at-any-cost selective US interventionism, surely people should deplore all these cynical exponents of the 'great game'?
I am aware that both 'empires' are evil but the Russians are currently well in front. To pretend that Russia is somehow more Christian or righteous than the West as so many do is laughable, e.g. their abortion rate is among the highest in the world (more than twice that of the US or UK) and their deaths through alcohol abuse is the highest in the world by a very long way (they must be a really happy Christian people!). They have a president who was an operative (and openly proud of it) of the most vicious secret Communist organisation and who brags about killing state 'enemies' no matter where they hide! And then some believe that he is a good Orthodox Christian and that he wouldn't actually murder people when there is abundant evidence that he frequently does. He leads a country with massive natural resources and with twice the population of the UK (which has no natural resources to speak of) but whose GDP is about half that of the UK and which has a declining population and yet he spends his resources on pretending that Russia is a great power instead of on the welfare of his people.
Russia is irredeemably corrupt and so its economy can never reach its potential. Russian resources were 'privatised' and sold to the friends and relatives of those doing the selling, there are more billionaires but also more people living in desperate conditions in Moscow than in any city in the West. I recently listened to a man who re-opened a factory that made military felt boots which were highly regarded by Russians generally. The factory was abandoned after the USSR ceased to exist because of a fall in military orders. He was aware that the factory contained all the plant necessary to recommence production and that there were former workers from the factory living in the locality. He reopened the factory and the product was again immensely popular with Russians but also, now with those living in cold climates in other countries. Everyone was happy. Then his success came to the notice of various government functionaries who demanded bribes for every one of the numerous licences necessary to employ, buy equipment, buy raw materials, export etc. Eventually, there were so many fingers in the pie that he begged them to be more moderate in their demands or he could not make a profit and pay the workers. Unfortunately they were not inclined to listen and the factory closed. He was recorded standing beside it saying that he would try to recreate the factory in the West where you could actually make a profit without having to pay everyone and his dog for the privilege of creating wealth employing workers and satisfying a demand. It is offered as an example of the deep corruption and cynicism of the country which is as sick in its soul as any in the world.
You couln’t be more wrong. Since the end of the Cold War the roles have been reversed and the West is the new Evil Empire. Communism has come again and it is now the West that is the seat of Bolshevism. It is the West’s shameless, demonic Neocon warmongering which has brought us to the brink of war with Russia (all of Reagan’s and JPII’s efforts towards Peace have been plushed down the toilet by the Neocons) and launched the greatest persecution of Middle Eastern Christians since the ancient Roman persecutions. Russia has opposed the demonic Western, Neocon agenda and this is the reason for all the hatred and propaganda spewing forth from the Western establishment. Thankfully, more and more ordinary, blue-collar, non-elite Westerners are growing wise to the scam.
I rest my case...
For what its worth, I would be inclined to agree with Richard in this argument. The Western media portrayal of Russia seems very corrupt, especially its account of events in Syria. In my opinion Russia are the good guys in the Middle East while the deep state in the Western powers are busy supporting jihadists to destabilise many countries.
I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. What both superpowers are dealing with now didn't happen in a vacuum. It built up over years of meddling and nobody's hands are clean. In recent years, the Russians seem to have been all that stood between the Christians and total genocide but that probably has more to do with Russia's strategic interests than any concern for the Christians. While the Christians weren't Assad's father's main target, he was a brutal dictator supported by the Russians. Assad saw the writing on the wall after what happened in other countries in the region and was beginning to make improvements when the trouble started. The ISIS rampage is down to the US and their "regime change" strategy. They armed ISIS. At first they called them freedom fighters, then said that they were a tiny faction not worth worrying about, then tried to shift the blame. They and their NATO allies are responsible for the flood of refugees into Europe.
I believe that the Russians were involved in the assassinations in the UK. I also believe that the countries screaming about it would do the same if they felt threatened. The likes of the SAS aren't exactly boy scouts.
There is no altruistic vision here outside of self interests run amok on the part of the US, Russia, Israel, Iran and Turkey. I wish I could say differently but history proves this out time and again.
I couldn't be more wrong, in your opinion. In mine, Putin is a murderous thug and he brags about it (the bragging is not an opinion and there is no need to debate it). Neither is it necessary to debate the fact that Russia is a deeply corrupt, dictatorship where abortion, alcoholism, poverty and early death are the norm (alongside stupendous wealth for the few relatives and friends of the leadership) and it has with a murderer for a leader. I am happy for you to insult me if it makes you read the truth about your hero and his poor country.
Everything you have parroted about Putin is a Neocon falsehood based on zero evidence. The Neocon Western Establishment has projected their own guilt and crimes onto Russia and are unrepentant. Russia will be the instrument of Divine Chastisement on a wicked, apostate West. Putin receives the Sacraments weekly. The Russian Government publicly acknowledges and elevates Christ the King in public affairs. The Russian military blesses their weapons of war with Holy Water. There is no comparison between the Freemason-led West’s Anti-Christian domestic and foreign policy and that of Russia. Putin is not just another side of the same coin.
Didnt Our Lady of Fatima say that without the consecration of russia to Her Immaculate Heart that Russia will spread Her errors throughout the world? I will never feel that Russia is Good because of that statement from Mother Mary. The dropping of communism supposedly is a ruse that is meant to fool us in my opinion.
It certainly hasn't been dropped by Pope Francis' friends in China.
I meant russia only.
Separate names with a comma.