The thing is that I have never read anywhere in the messages that Russia must convert in the way you mentioned. I assume this would be the case, given that the apparition happened in the Catholic world, but it is only an assumption on my part. We also don't know for certain that Our Lady was referring to the CCC definition of conversion, and if she was, we would have to look at the Portuguese definition of conversion of the catechism in use in 1917. The conversion could also be ongoing, so it started with a return to Orthodoxy from communism. It could have also been fulfilled in the conversion back to Orthodoxy. For all we know, with the way communism is unfolding, Russia could convert back to communism. The "they" you mention also doesn't explicitly mean Russia to my knowledge. My position is that I cannot make assumptions, I use what appears to be clear. Which is Sr. Lucia's interpretation, who is the actual seer. Which I understand is not popular, because it makes people think the "era of peace" is being dismissed. However my position is not all that much different from that of others. I still believe in the "era of peace", I just happen to believe it comes after Jesus comes, and that end times prophecy is currently wrapping up.
Yeah, this sounds like a new earth after Jesus comes. SPJPII, PBXVI, and Sr. Lucia all believed Fatima related to the end times.
“A lot of people recognize that we need to do something with Iran, but not these weak little bombing runs,” said Vance, apparently referring to US strikes on Iranian proxies in the Middle East. https://www.timesofisrael.com/trump...-so-israel-and-sunni-states-can-counter-iran/
So this is wild, I have been trying to understand the rapture according to the Catholic faith, and it turns out it isn't contrary to Catholicism at all. We believe it happens at the second coming https://www.catholic.com/qa/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture
I think it will be before Jesus returns, I believe this will be the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But I'm just giving you my opinion, which is no better than yours or anyone else's on this forum.
‘Convert’ is a transitive verb, I think... When something or someone is converted, we ask: converted into what? The question of whether or not Russia has already been consecrated as Heaven has asked is not the main question. What we should be asking is whether Russia has already been converted, and if so, to what? The goal of Russia's consecration was the conversion of "this poor nation", everything else will only be a consequence of that.
I would also add to the question, "from what? to what?". The "from what?" IMO is answered in regards to "she will spread her errors". So Russia would be a nation containing specific errors, the most obvious being communism, which encapsulates many errors. We also know that with the consecration/reparation, that Russia wouldn't be converted to further errors, so the conversion would be away from errors which indicates it is towards the Truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. However, the conversion that has happened in Russia is not this kind of fervorous faith transformation. Something like only 41% practice Orthodoxy and 50% Christianity. But it was a conversion none the less, a conversion away from communism for the entire nation, which seemed to be contingent on the consecration, but also the reparations of the faithful. It may not be the conversion everyone expected, but it is the conversion which happened. Which also coincided with a period of peace that didn't live up to many peoples expectations.
Communism is certainly the most obvious error that has spread throughout the world, but not the oldest, which I would say is the hostility towards the Catholic faith in Russian territory and in other lands that Russia claims as its own. This error prevails to this day and it seems to me that it is being reborn, for example, in the occupied territories of Ukraine.
I believe it could be argued that communism encompasses a hostility to Catholicism, because it attacks all religions. As well, if hostility towards Catholicism is the error which would be spread around the world, then the message is 2000 years late.
Our Lady spoke of errors in the plural, and you can include several... Prohibiting or strongly conditioning the Catholic faith in Russia is an error that dates back to the time of the tsars, centuries before the rise of communism. This error was later taken up by the Soviet regime, which initially persecuted religion in general, and then adopted the schismatic and heretical Russian Orthodox Church as the regime's official religion, which was the instrument used in the Stalinist era to persecute Catholicism (something that is increasingly similar to what we are seeing recently with the Putinist regime). Hostility to the Catholic faith is in fact an error of Russia before and after the apparitions of Fatima, which continues to this day. But if you don't consider it an error or just a minor one in the context of Fatima, I won't discuss it with you, I'll just respect your opinion that differs from mine.
That's why I value so much the subject we've been discussing in another thread. The apparitions of Fatima, in which the conversion of Russia was called for, took place in 1917, precisely between the February and October revolutions. The Russian revolution of February 1917 created a climate of tolerance towards Catholicism in Russia, which even allowed the Eastern Rite Catholic Church to be founded in Russia as an exarchate of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. This would happen on the Catholic Synod of Petrograd, in the same month as the first apparition of Fatima. Shortly after the last apparition of Fatima, the 1917 October Revolution took place, which brought religious intolerance in general and Catholic persecution in particular.
“I want My whole Church to acknowledge that Consecration [of Russia] as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so that later on it will put the Devotion to My Mother’s Immaculate Heart beside the Devotion to My Sacred Heart.” (Our Lord to Sister Lucia, May 1936) The Feast of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Message of Fatima | The Fatima Center Have we seen this yet?
I consider it an error, I don't consider it minor, but given the context of events which unfolded in 1917, that communism is the umbrella for the errors. Turning entirely to athiesm as a nation is far more grave than the schism IMO.
I still think the conversion of Russia to Catholicism can happen. That the seeds were being planted for it in everything you mentioned. But it seems to me, according to the second message, there were two distinct timelines. The first being that if Our Lady's requests were heeded, Russia would be converted and there would be peace. The second being that if the requests were not heeded, Russia would spread her errors amongst other things. It is clear to me the second timeline came to pass. Perhaps a greater conversion of Russia could have happened in the first timeline, one where Russia would have united with Rome once more.
Exactly. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is the main key to understand this entire process. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is heresy, from the point of view of the Russian Orthodox Church, which makes them heretics and schismatics. Fatima is a fantasy, from the point of view of the Russian Orthodox Church. If there is any devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in the so-called canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox Church, this happens in the very few authorized Catholic churches in Russia or in the hundreds of Catholic churches in Ukraine, regardless of whether they are of the Latin or Orthodox tradition.
It seems to me that if the consecration and reparations had happened according to Our Lady's requests, the peace would have been indefinite and we would have seen this come to pass. But we entered the second timeline. The fact that the Lord Jesus used the words "I want" means the prophecy is contingent not absolute. We had this mountain of sin and the Lord gave us a way out through Our Lady. But we failed, so now we get what is behind door number two. Yet, we expect first place prizes for second best efforts.
Sorry brother Pax, but this approach to the two timelines has no logic or documentary basis. According to this approach, we could create three or more timelines, as many as we wanted... Our Lady refers to a process that goes through three phases: [1] consecration of Russia; [2] conversion of Russia; [3] time of peace. We must not complicate what is simple to understand. We essentially have two interpretative options, in my opinion: A - The consecration was done according to what Heaven asked, Russia was converted and a time of peace followed, which may or may not have ended. B - The consecration has not yet been done exactly as Heaven requested, the conversion of Russia has not yet happened, at least completely (which leaves room for some of these errors to now gain new expression), we continue to wait for a time of peace. But I would also add a third possible interpretation for those who believe that the last consecration carried out by JPii corresponded exactly to what Heaven requested: C - The consecration was carried out but it was already too late and, therefore, the conversion of Russia and the time of peace should only happen after the announced punishments (which should be interrupted due to a direct intervention from Our Lady). Interpretation A, the most optimistic (and unwise IMHO) is basically the Vatican's official interpretative line and contradicted by Bxvi at Fatima in 2010. Interpretations B and C are based on the words spoken by Our Lady to Sr. Lúcia, in Tuy, Spain, on June 13, 1029: They did not want to respond to My request!... Like the king of France, they will regret it and do it, but it will be too late. Russia will have already spread its errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecution of the Church: the Holy Father will have to suffer a lot. Source: https://www.fatima.pt/pt/pages/narrativa-das-aparicoes (google automatic translation) I'm more inclined towards hypothesis B, but I respect all opinions on this highly speculative topic.
