Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by Bernadette C, Apr 6, 2019.

  1. Bernadette C

    Bernadette C Principalities

    This is controversial, but sometimes to find some truths it comes at the expense of upsetting our thoughts.
    I always hear Fulton Sheen saying ''it has been our thinking that has been wrong.''

    I read information a couple of weeks ago from this forum about the book of Apocolypse and I studied it for it to make sense. It did make sense, but it upset my way of thinking.
    I am very open and willing to change my mind for the sake of truth.
    There are things that I want to know.
    Is JP11 really a saint?

    Today with so many blogs we now talk about the wrong doings with this pontiff, but I have no idea what JP11 did.
    He did travel the world and he was very popular with the world.
    I also know he kissed the Koran which I believe is wrong.

    Please dont reply by being defensive and just say JP11 was wonderful.
    What I would like to know is...

    What did JP11 do that might be considered anti catholic?
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
    Heidi likes this.
  2. Xavier

    Xavier "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will Triumph."

    I think the measure of a Pontiff is his Encyclical writings and Apostolic exhortations. What does the Pope encourage the Faithful to do in his teachings? That is the main thing imho, if we want to see what his pontificate was like, we have to go by. I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church was a great doctrinal and pastoral work completed under Pope John Paul II. You can find his complete list of Encycicals here if you're interested.

    One of the great things Pope St. John Paul II did in another respect, as President Raegan, Premier Gorbachev, President Walesa of Poland, and many others have said, is that the Pope hastened the downfall of Communism in the former Soviet union. This fact is well documented, and it was a great victory for Christianity.

    [Edit: See for e.g. a news article from CNN on it:]

    That being said, yes, I think the events in inter-faith dialogue and ecumenism etc under his pontificate are legitimate issues to be slightly concerned about. We have to be very careful with ecumenism generally, especially where non-Christian religions are concerned. Of course, we have to love for everybody, and be gentle in leading those who are in error to the Truth; still, we cannot compromise on the Great Commission, and world evangelism focused on bringing all to salvation in Christ. We should always bear witness, in Truth and Love, that Peace and Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ, and that without knowing and loving Him, we cannot hope to be saved. When I read the Catechism, I see this doctrine stated. E.g. in CCC 161, "161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" but sometimes in practice, by leading churchmen, even the Popes, a different impression is given. We should always testify unambiguously that salvation is only in Christ, St. Peter and the Apostles certainly did, before the Sanhedrin, Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven [other than the Name of Jesus] given to men, whereby we must be saved. [Acts 4:12]

    Some people also criticize Pope John Paul II for his appointments to the Episcopate and the Cardinalate. I don't think that's legitimate. I recall reading that as of 2019, from current Cardinals, less than 20 electors only, I think, were appointed by Pope St. John Paul II. Under Pope St. John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the CDF and later Pope Benedict XVI, Catholic conservatives around the world had the confidence the Vatican would lead on moral and spiritual issues.

    On the whole, I think it was a successful pontificate for the Church, some small mistakes notwithstanding. Canonizations and universal veneration give us assurance a person is a Saint in Heaven, not to mention the miracles etc investigated and confirmed while the process is ongoing. We know Pope St. John Paul II is a Saint just like we know e.g. St. Padre Pio, St. Mother Teresa, St. Pius X etc are Saints. Saints can sometimes make slight mistakes, though, and on those points we should not follow them. For e.g. no one should kiss a quran, but we don't know what was the intention of the Pope there, it may have been just a mistake he regretted later. But the downfall of Communism, his fervent support for the pro-life cause and so many other good things Pope St. John Paul II did make him, in my humble opinion, a very good Saint and Pope on the whole. Pope St. John Paul II was also Totus Tuus, entirely consecrated to Mary, and some say, a victim soul. He promoted Total Consecration. God bless.
  3. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    You can probably cherry pick any Pope...and make them look bad. What St. John 2 did was preach to every part of the world. I think he was a great evangelizer. He was probably the first Pope to use modern technology to spread the word of God. He also had a huge impact on Poland. Many Poland youth joined the ministry. His priest are currently throughout the world. They understand value of individual sanctity. He was a good Pope. He and Mother Theresa were our spokes was the calm before the storm.

    As for kissing a Koran...I could argue from His free will... it was a action of humility. If it was forced upon you...thats a different story.

    Brother al
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  4. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Wasn’t St John PaulII also the one who instituted the Divine Mercy Sunday devotions and the related indulgences?
    I think so.
    I agree with fallen saint, you could probably cherry pick any Pope and make them look bad. Some people even criticize Pope St Pius X for allowing frequent reception of Holy Communion because they claim it led to abuses. :eek:
  5. Mario

    Mario Powers


    Xavier said: I think the events in inter-faith dialogue and ecumenism etc under his pontificate are legitimate issues to be slightly concerned about.

    The inter-faith (many religions) prayer gathering that took place in Assisi in 1986 is very disappointing to me, in hindsight. The idea or theme that all peoples of good will should pray and strive for peace is commendable, yet the youtube clips showing 130 different religious representatives praying together and at times invoking false gods, in the birthplace of Francis who journeyed to try and convert the Muslim Sultan, smacked to me of indifferentism. Such I find at best confusing, and at worst abominable. The fact that there is only one religion possessing the fullness of truth and that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man was glossed over. I don't question the intent of St. John Paul II, but... (n):(

    I would like to re-affirm, however, that his writings are superb, especially the encyclicals like Evangelium Vitae, Familiaris Consortio, and Verititas Splendor.

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
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  6. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    Some of the ecumenical gatherings such as Assisi and what took place there are hard to stomach IMO because the popes who took part in them while it being a humble act of love toward those of other beliefs did IMO a poor job of protecting the flock and the truth. Doubt led me down a rabbit hole of sedevacantist thought and my faith was also affected for a time. Pope Francis has actually been very good in this regard for me personally in that his personal opinions and actions have helped me to understand that regardless of his personal beliefs the Church teaching remains unchanged. It is his responsibility to defend this whether he does or not.
    Pope Saint JPII just like all popes in the last 100+ years have faced enormous pressures both inside the Vatican and outside to appear to change and soften the teachings of the church. What many fail to realize is that they can not do this even if in the case of Pope Francis they say and write things which create scandal with the faithful. The teachings of the Church remain the same and are not able to be changed. The truth is the truth. The question is can we recognize it?
    The Church made JPII a Saint and I accept that he is one but I am not a big fan of his pontificate although I do believe that he fought to the very end powers that would have loved to see him abandon the chair of Peter. The true enemy of the Church and of God is one that is rising up now in very great numbers and power politically. It has been hidden for hundreds of years but it will reveal itself soon.
    A great many Catholics have been and will be led away from the truth. We know this because we were warned of false Christs from the very beginning of the church sowing their works of iniquity. Just like the letters to the 7 churches in the beginning of the book of revelation we too must hold fast to our first love so we are not also led astray.
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  7. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    As for Pope Saint John Paul II having kissed the Quran, the following article may help you deal with this if you are having difficulty with such.

    I think that Jimmy Atkin is being very honest in this article and if you have taken the time to read what the sedevacantists and various haters of the Church have stated about this incident, I think that you should at least take the time to read this article and give it some thought.

    I often think of our first pope, Saint Peter who denied Our Lord three times, this was a very grave thing but yet he was chosen as our first pope possibly to remind us that no man is perfect not even the pope.

    Edited to add:

    In addition, our pre- and post- 9/11 thinking is greatly different imho. I believe that our thoughts have greatly changed since terrorism executed by Muslim extremists has become far more prevalent in places where it almost never existed before 9/11/2001. Pope Saint John Paul II may have been doing what he thought would might help bring peace but I believe that ultimately he knew from prophecy that what we have been experiencing was coming including the attempted genocide of Christians in many places in the world. :cry:

    Muslim Terrorists' Merciless Killing of Nigerian Christians Continues as Mainstream Media Remains Silent
    03-25-2019 | Steve Warren |
    Frank Gaffney, the chairman of Save The Persecuted Christians (STPC), appeared on Tuesday's CBN's Newswatch program to talk about the persecution of Nigeria's Christians.

    Christians in Nigeria witnessed another round of bloody attacks last week as Boko Haram terrorists captured the town of Michika in Nigeria's far eastern state of Adamawa, burning buildings and exchanging fire with government troops.

    According to an op-ed in the Washington Examiner by journalist Douglas Burton, the attack continued for hours with an unknown number of casualties, although initial reports mentioned: "scores killed." Burton is a member of the advisory board for Save the Persecuted Christians (STPC), which advocates on behalf of more than 300 million persecuted Christians around the globe.

    Father Peter John Wumbadi is head of St. Anne's Catholic Church in Michika. Wumbadi told Burton he "heard bomb blasts and lots of stray bullets," which motivated him to pack six students from the parish school into his SUV and drive past burning buildings and crowds of panicked citizens who were running for cover.

    Wumbadi drove to the village of Kalaa, where he and the students took refuge in the parish house of Father Lawrence Ikeh, which is just a few miles away from the Sambisa National Park. It is believed some 5,000 or more Boko Haram terrorists shelter in underground bunkers in the park.

    "After that attack, I came to visit the villages in the two-mile area around my church, and it was like a cemetery," said Father Ikeh, weeping. "More than 150 people had been murdered."

    2 Islamic Groups Target Nigerian Christians - 300 Killed While 72 Others Supernaturally Saved from Firing Squad
    Nigerian Christians Under Siege: Attacks Claim 120 Lives Since February
    6 Christians Murdered, 470 More Flee Muslim Militia Attack in the Congo

    In 2015, the Boko Haram was ranked the world's deadliest terror group by the Institute for Economics and Peace.

    As CBN News reported, at least 120 people have been killed in a series of attacks allegedly carried out by the Fulani militia on Christian communities in the Adara chiefdom of southern Kaduna in Nigeria since February, according to the nonprofit group Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW).

    The killing has also continued in the Congo as Open Doors USA reported earlier this month that six Christians, including three women and a nine-year-old child, were killed in an attack on the Christian village of Kalau located near the city of Beni in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

    The attackers were a part of the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF). The ADF was formed 24 years ago by Ugandan Muslim rebels after they retreated from the Ugandan army.

    In the last five years, hundreds of civilians have died in the Beni area of the Congo alone, according to Open Doors USA. ADF militants are thought to have killed at least 700 civilians and more than 20 UN peacekeepers.

    The attack against two mosques in New Zealand has continued to dominate the headlines in the American media since a self-proclaimed racist killed 50 people. Although attacks against Muslims living in the western world are extremely rare, the situation does not compare with the killing of Christians living in the Muslim world. According to Open Doors USA, at least 4,305 Christians known by name were murdered by Muslims because of their faith in 2018.

    Aid to the Church in Need, in its latest "Religious Freedom Report", warned that 300 million Christians, overwhelmingly in the majority-Muslim countries, were subjected to violence, making it "the most persecuted religion in the world."

    The Voice of Europe reports that the odds of a Christian in a majority-Muslim country being murdered by a Muslim – simply for being what he or she is – are approximately one in 70,000. Which means that a Christian living in a majority Muslim country is 143 times more likely to be killed by a Muslim for being a Christian than a Muslim is likely to be killed by a non-Muslim in a Western country for being what he or she is.​
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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  8. Bernadette C

    Bernadette C Principalities

    Sorry. I have difficulties copying via my phone. But you can all google it.

    Since Vatican 11 the Church changed.
    Now if I were pope or if any of you were pope, would you not have had the Pope's audience Hall demolished?
    There is no way in hell that I would be caught dead in that place!

    Whats going on?
    ''Even the elect will be decieved.''

    We can not blame everything on Pope Frances.
    Don't you think that things were being put in place long before this pontiff?

    Just think how evil works.
    If it was to show all its hands at first, it would be rejected. It has to be slow so we don't recognise it. Or we just blow it off as a one off.
    But were there many things happening that we just weren't informed of as we didnt have internet blogs to speak of it.

    Come on, there must be older and wiser heads out there that could think of Popes since Vatican 11 that did things or said things that were anti catholic.
  9. Mario

    Mario Powers

    No, we can't blame everything on Pope Francis. And a number of atrocious events have occurred since the Vatican II Council. I see you've only been a member since October; much of our collective angst has popped up in The Vatican Has Fallen thread if you wish to read through that.

    Let me ask you this:

    In view of your obvious disappointment since the Council, how do you think Catholics should respond? What should we do and where should we go? How has the Lord led you?:coffee:

    Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
  10. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    This is what we have left, Bernadette. We are still with God and He will not leave us orphans. God bless you. Our Blessed Mother came to Fatima to give us the directions.
    You probably pray the Rosary daily. Mario has a good point about re-reading this thread.
  11. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    [21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; lo, he is here: do not believe. [22] For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect. [23] Take you heed therefore; behold I have foretold you all things. [24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. [25] And the stars of heaven shall be falling down, and the powers that are in heaven, shall be moved.

    We must have faith Bernadette and faith is a great mystery as we all know. In spite of all the things that have happened since Jesus made us this promise...

    "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

    Have you read the book Lord of the World by Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson? Both Pope Benedict as well as Pope Francis recommended it more than once. I have found quite a bit of comfort in this book and how it lays out the coming of the antichrist and false religion that is rising up even now as well as how the head of the Church responds in the face of untold evil at the moment of truth.
  12. Bernadette C

    Bernadette C Principalities

    Beautifully answered.
    We should just continue to be faithful catholics.
    There is no where else to go. Our Church is the only true faith.
    I once asked God to show me truth in all things. I now do see things different to how I once did. He gives and He takes.
    Maybe it was just pride that wanted me to show how I see something or maybe it is because I was needing help on decerning a couple of things. Either way what difference would it make?
    An old and good saying is... ''let sleeping dogs lie.''

    I do hate being decieved so I do search deep like some of you here.
    Deception is everywhere. In our Church, politics, and even with most of the prophecies many here follow.
    All we can do is stay faithful to the Church and pray.
    Xavier likes this.
  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I would not seek to llok too deeply into the nisdeeds of others, apart from my own.

    Looking back at my own relationship with the Church in the past I have often bene decieved by false teachings. I take pity on those who have also been decieved.

    I think for many it is only in the last few years my eyes have bene opened a bit.

    I still think Pope John Paul was a great saint and a great Pope. It makes me love him all the more if he made a few mistakes. He was a guy of his time as I was myself. It kind of cheers me up that he was in the same bad boat I often was myself.
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  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think it is easier to stand on a roof when it is fairly firm. It is less easy to stand on roof when the termites have eaten though the wood. I pity Pope in recent times the temrites ate a lot of the wood beneath their feet. I can sympathise if they wobbled a little.
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  15. Agnes rose

    Agnes rose Archangels

    I definitely felt pure love for Him! Just a glimpse on the tv of Him and i would be so filled with love! I have not often felt that way for a Pope.
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  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

    There is doubt whatsoever he was a very great saint and Pope. But I guess the blackriver can flow so fast soemtimes it can sweep us along a little. I am not blaming him for this. I admire him very greatly. But we all of us human enough to make mistakes.

    I know I do.

    This is part of our common fallen humanity. Saints are saints, not because they are perfect, but because when they fall they rise up and try again.

    It is the rising up, not the falling down that is important.
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  17. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Don't be too bothered Bernadette. If the Church says he's a Saint and you call him a Saint, God is not going to judge you for that. In fact you are showing deference to the Church and to God by doing so. It doesn't mean you need to appeal to him if you don't feel comfortable doing so. He made mistakes, but we don't know what was going on inside his head.

    One thing that puts my mind at ease is knowing only God decides when a person dies and Pope St. John Paul II died on the eve of Divine Mercy Sunday and the assassination attempt against him was on May 13th, the anniversary of Fatima. He was saved by bending down to greet a young girl with a devotional of Our Lady of Fatima and the bullet struck a carpenter instead. These are not accidents, for there are no accidents with God.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019

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