Hi guys, I sometimes meet with a mens group, most of whom are retired and married, and we invariably discuss a variety of topics. On a recent occasion, the topic was the on married life and kids. One chap said he and his wife ( both 60 ish) had no children and that she had a necessary medical procedure which now rendered her unable to have intercourse, but that she still tended to his needs, ie. hand-job (excuse the bluntness, his word). I didn't quite know how to answer him as I wasn't sure what the specifics of Church teaching are in this area. I took it to a few priests in confession (it was the only way I could pin them down to give an answer) Anyhow all I seemed to get was some vague answers and am more confused now than I was. I also looked up the catechism, but the wording there seemed vague also, or else I was looking in the wrong place. I would like to be able to set him straight on this if I need to, as he is a faithful Catholic and I welcome any comments from here. BC
Have you looked up the sin of Onanism? I don't have time to post them now, but also looking up the guidelines for Natural Family Planning may clarify things. The guidelines get VERY specific, even for folks beyond childbearing years.
The simple answer is that all sexual activity that is not ultimately directed to ejaculation inside the woman's vagina is immoral. In the instance cited we have a clear severing of the two meanings of the sexual act the unitive and procreative.
I would also add that to have such an expectation of a wife to be carrying out these acts would be to take away her dignity and sow the seeds of bitterness.
Border Collie, what Malachi has posted here is the difficult, but accurate Church Teaching on this subject. It is pretty simple, but clear.
Good answers folks. Many Catholics have a worldly understanding of sexuality because our world has been delivered to a hedonistic and licentious mindset of crudeness. The marital act is a beautiful gift from God. satan makes every effort to distort the beauty and dignity of the marital act as it has its origin in creation -- One needs grace, lots of grace to live a life conformed to the Divine Will in this regard. Malachi has given a good summary. He has spoken truly.
Thanks guys for your replies, in all of the priests I spoke to about him, they all said if they had a loving relationship then it was ok. I still had a niggling uneasy feeling though. Perhaps somebody could guide me to a concise Church teaching that I could use when I speak to him about it. Others in our group who know the situation but not Church teaching would tell me to stay out of it and mind my own business. And to be honest I would prefer not to say anything but my conscience won't let me.
This is basically a form of masturbation. I am amazed priests would not see this. It is, I suppose, a sign of the times. So sad. I would say because two people are involved and it is highly deliberate; it is mortally sinful. https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/masturbation-mortal-sin.html 'To answer this, let us look, first of all, at the Church's teaching. In 1975, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Declaration on Certain Problems of Sexual Ethics, and it is this document that the Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes regarding this issue. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action" (CCC# 2352). Whatever the motive, solitary sex in itself contradicts the meaning of human sexuality, which is meant by God to be shared between a man and a woman in marriage. You ask if masturbation is viewed as a mortal or venial sin. Remember, that for a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met. It has to be a very serious and grave matter, which is committed with full knowledge and with deliberate consent. What we are saying is that for it to be mortal sin, it would have to be done deliberately, knowing that it is not what God wishes for us and without any regard for that. In order to judge the morality of a human act, certain conditions have to be considered. The Church recognizes, for example, that in the practice of masturbation, psychological factors including adolescent immaturity, lack of psychological balance, and even ingrained habit can influence a person's behavior, and this could lessen or even eliminate moral responsibility. The condition that many persons claim for their innocence regarding masturbation is habit, and we certainly know how difficult habits are to break. We must keep in mind, however, that habit does not completely destroy the voluntary nature of our acts. As Christians who are going to be held accountable for our actions, we must strive to unite ourselves to the Lord and, therefore, do all we can to curb or eliminate all habits that detach us from Him. So, if a person is masturbating and knows fully that it is wrong, and does it willingly without doing anything to resist, then he or she is guilty of grave sin. If they are in doubt about the morality of any sexual activity, a person should talk to his or her confessor, a priest. After listening to all of the circumstances and conditions surrounding an individual's actions, he will make a judgment and give the proper guidance. Sometimes, professional help will have to be sought. But we should be careful with this because some professionals will actually encourage masturbation, and this would be wrong. God knows that we will sometimes fail, but He does expect us to do our best to live according to His ways. He knows when we have done all we can to resist sin. If we have done that and have acknowledged and confessed our sin, then we can rest in the knowledge that we have done our best, and that He will forgive us.'
Thanks Padraig, I have been praying about how to talk to him about all of this and the thought came to me to talk to both him and his wife. She probably doesn't know he has mentioned their intimacies outside though. They are both from a country in which I have always marvelled at their openness in talking about stuff the ordinary Irish person would shun. So perhaps she might be willing to discuss also?
What these priests told you is not accurate in any way, shape, or form. No variation on Catholic Teaching says this is okay. Padraig is right, it is masturbation. Here is the CCC section on sex: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm Many people are not aware of this, but if two people are engaged and one is unable to have sexual intercourse the two aren't even allowed to get married as they could not consummate the marriage. All sexual intercourse between married individuals must end with the male climaxing inside the female's vagina.
Here is a detailed article with a Nihil Obstat by a priest on the subject. From EWTN: http://www.ewtn.com/library/marriage/mormar.txt This is from section IV: For the action to be sound in its general nature it is required that the parties to it are a man and woman married to one another and that their natural bodies are joined in life-giving intercourse. Here a distinction must be drawn between the human action considered in itself and the whole set of complicated and lengthy natural processes which precede and follow it. (See Fig. 1.) Sex intercourse is the responsible human action of a man and woman in bodily communion; a moral fact as well as a physical fact. This action must be of that kind from which generation can follow, the male seed being left in the proper female organ, the vagina. If this be done in the natural manner and there be no attempt to impede or frustrate its consequences, then in itself the action possesses an inherent direction towards the blessing of fruitfulness, and is a life-giving, or more precisely a life- offering action, whether actual generation takes place or not. On the contrary, if the seed is not sown in the vagina but in a pseudo-vagina or is sterilized in the vagina or is prevented from entering the womb within the period of the action, then the action is altered in its very nature and cannot be called a generative kind of act.
BC I can tell you it is wrong and seriously sinful. My confessor spelled it out f ok f me. He said sometimes priests dont want to tell the truth about it because they fear hurting people but he said truth is truth. Also the Church is on the books saying every sexual encounter between husband and wife must end in natural intercourse. These are "hard ssyings" but that is GoD's word. Hope this helps.
Good on you BC. You are helping him to the truth that may very well help him save his soul. I had a lot of priests soft peddle the answer too. Til my current confessor some years ago spelled it out loud and clear.
Right Lumena. It is objectively speaking actually quite despicable. JPII addressed this danger of using another for one's own pleasure.
My opinion is that as long as they keep their sexuality between husband and wife it would be fine especially when his wife has medical problems in this area. Only my opinion. God bless... Gary
Well then, if a couple who are engaged and saving sex for marriage realise when married that for a medical reason they can't consummate it, is it still a valid marriage so long as they receive professional help?
BC, The morality of the particularities have already been pointed out. The beauty of our sexuality is akin to all the gifts of God; it is oriented toward life and toward the other; it is life-giving. In every marriage act the husband's focus should never be centered on his "needs", but should center on the love he has toward his spouse and in bringing her joy. For the good fruit of love is joy, but the the bad fruit of lust is self-gratification. I love the prayer of Tobias and Sara on their wedding night: Tobit 8:5 For we are the children of saints, and we must not be joined together like heathens that know not God. 6 So they both arose, and prayed earnestly both together that health might be given them, 7 And Tobias said: Lord God of our father, may the heavens and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains, and the rivers, and all thy creatures that are in them, bless thee. 8 Thou madest Adam of the slime of the earth, and gavest him Eve for a helper. 9 And now, Lord, thou knowest, that not for fleshly lust do I take my sister to wife, but only for the love of posterity, in which thy name may be blessed for ever and ever. 10 Sara also said: Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us, and let us grow old both together in health.
Let me just say first off I am not a canon lawyer, so I will answer to the best of my ability. A marriage isn't consummated until the couple have full proper sexual relations in the Catholic sense. My understanding is that the marriage you described is valid, but it is not the indissoluable bond that a consummated marriage is. So if for instance a man and woman went through the marriage ceremony then both went their separate ways for a week without ever having sex, then decided that they didn't want to be married anymore, they could have the Church dissolve the marriage. This is different than an annullment. The article below explains it in more detail and better than I could. http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/12/19/canon-law-and-consummating-a-marriage/ In the example you gave the two people did not know until after they were married that there would be a problem consummating. This is different than two people who know they cannot consummate before they get married.
Your are in danger of being a false teacher and leading others to sin with your 'opinion'. The Church clearly teaches that masturbation is a intrinsically and gravely disordered action. I prefer to believe the teachings of the church than someone's 'opinion'.
