Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by padraig, Jul 16, 2009.

  1. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I recall reading a good post a while back on the difference between punishment and chastisement. A lot of Catholics have very great difficulty with this. A good father will chastise or rebuke his children, this is to set the children straight. This is the right and duty of a parent given to them by God. However a parent should not punish a child , in other words inflict pain simply for the pleasure of giving pain.

    I think as we enter the Chastisements associated with the Tribulation it is important to differentiate these two. God is not punishing . He is Chastising or Rebuking us. This in order to set us straight. What would be really harmful for us is of God let us waltz of down the road to hell without lifting a hand to stop us. However I know many Catholics have very real difficulty associating Chastisement , or God's justice with His love and Mercy. In fact Hod's Justice is simply drawing from Go'ds love, if you like Justice and mercy are the two hands of God's love.

    Amyhow I came acroos a really excellent post on another forum about this which I hope I can find again and post:

    Ah. here it is here on the Catholic online forum:

    The Bible:

    “The LORD is a jealous God and avenging, the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.
    Nahum 1:2

    “ It was not for destruction that you were sold to the nations, but you were handed over to your enemies because you angered God. For you provoked him who made you, by sacrificing to demons and not to God…… My children, endure with patience the wrath that has come upon you from God.”
    Baruch 4: 6-8 & 25

    “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.”
    Colossians 3:5-6

    “……they do not please God, and are opposed to
    everyone, trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles
    that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure
    of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come
    upon them.” 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.” Romans 1:18

    “Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended.” Rev 15:1

    “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God." Rev 16:1

    8 "Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, says the LORD, and for Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these nations round about; I will utterly destroy them, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting reproach. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, says the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste. 13 I will bring upon that land all the words which I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. ................
    15 Thus the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword which I am sending among them." ....................
    32 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: Behold, evil is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest is stirring from the farthest parts of the earth!
    33 "And those slain by the LORD on that day shall extend from one end of the earth to the other. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall be dung on the surface of the ground. 34 "Wail, you shepherds, and cry, and roll in ashes, you lords of the flock, for the days of your slaughter and dispersion have come, and you shall fall like choice rams. 35 No refuge will remain for the shepherds, nor escape for the lords of the flock. 36 Hark, the cry of the shepherds, and the wail of the lords of the flock! For the LORD is despoiling their pasture, 37 and the peaceful folds are devastated, because of the fierce anger of the LORD. 38 Like a lion he has left his covert, for their land has become a waste because of the sword of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger."
    Jeremiah 25

    The Church:

    But if the boldness and wickedness of men change and disturb this order of things, so providentially disposed, then indeed things so wonderfully ordained will begin to be injurious, or will cease to be beneficial, either because in the change they have lost their power to benefit, or because God Himself is thus pleased to draw down chastisement on the pride and presumption of men."
    On Chastity in Marriage, Encyclical Letter by Pope Pius XI
    Casti Connubii ... ii_en.html

    “2. Jerusalem's suffering, sung by the prophets, was the result of the infidelities of her children, which had brought about God's chastisement and exile from their homeland”
    Pope John Paul II, April 1, 1984, Angelus

    “From the Book of Genesis it can be deduced that the biblical flood which devastated the earth and all that existed on it, with the exception of the creatures saved on Noah's ark, was the chastisement for another flood, that of sin (cf. Gen 6), in which the effects of the corruption brought about in the hearts and consciences of men were very soon made evident.”
    Pope John Paul II, On Sunday, 21 February, at the Roman Parish of St. Prisca.

    At first sight, to speak of punishment after sacramental forgiveness might seem inconsistent. The Old Testament, however, shows us how normal it is to undergo reparative punishment after forgiveness. God, after describing himself as "a God merciful and gracious ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin", adds: "yet not without punishing" (Ex 34: 6-7). In the Second Book of Samuel, King David's humble confession after his grave sin obtains God's forgiveness (cf. 2 Sm 12: 13), but not the prevention of the foretold chastisement (cf. ibid., 12: 11; 16: 21). God's fatherly love does not rule out punishment, even if the latter must always be understood as part of a merciful justice that re-establishes the violated order for the sake of man's own good (cf. Heb 12: 4-11).
    Pope John Paul II ... 99_en.html

    Approved apparition:

    In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind. With my Son I have intervened so many times to appease the wrath of the Father. I have prevented the coming of calamities by offering Him the sufferings of the Son on the Cross, His Precious Blood, and beloved souls who console Him forming a cohort of victim souls. Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father's anger.

    For example, the concept of a worldwide warning can be found in the Diary of Saint Faustina (Diary n.83), and both the message of Divine Mercy given to her (Diary n.1588), and that of Akita (approved by the local bishop), speak of chastisement if mankind does not ultimately repent. Similar prophetic content can be found in the writings of Elizabeth Canori-Mora and Mary of Jesus Crucified, both of whom were beatified by Pope John Paul II, as well as in prophecies given by God to Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and St. Caspar del Bufalo.

    In 1935, St. Faustina received a vision of an angel sent by God to chastise a certain city. She began to pray for mercy, but her prayers were powerless. Suddenly she saw the Holy Trinity and felt the power of Jesus’ grace within her. At the same time she found herself pleading with God for mercy with words she heard interiorly:

    Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world; for the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us. (Diary, 475)

    As she continued saying this inspired prayer, the angel became helpless and could not carry out the deserved punishment (see 474).

    Other sources:

    We know for certain that God will do this, as the end of the world approaches and in bringing about the end of the world, as is described in the Apocalypse and the apocalyptic sections of the three Synoptic Gospels (e.g., Mark 13). We also know from the Blessed Mother, in approved apparitions such as Fatima, that God punishes the world for its sins, to include wars and acts of nature. Many moderns will scoff at this and attribute purely natural causes, but the man of faith recognizes that Divine Providence extends to every aspect of creation, and God can and does use nature to punish mankind for its sins. The sins of abortion and homosexuality, in particular, cry out for Divine Vengeance upon us.
    Father Echert

    The violence of nature against man is all a result of sin, beginning with original sin. The violence of nature against us should always serve as a reminder that we are sinful creatures, and rather powerless against the Almighty. As to whether these particular storms are a warning leading to something much more widespread and catastrophic, we can only speculate. But our Blessed Mother has warned us repeatedly, in approved apparitions such as Fatima, that chastisements--especially wars--will come upon mankind, if we do not turn from sin. The modern world is more sinful than ever, with such sins as abortion and homosexuality, and so we are calling upon ourselves the wrath of God. ... ber=412369

    Surely God does punish sin, and on earth too, sometimes. The whole Old Testaent is replete with this action on God's part. God bless. ... 1&source=E

    All such disasters are a consequence of sin, in one form or another, beginning with Original Sin. That is not to say that any particular disaster is necessarily directly inflicted upon a people more deserving of it than another, any more than we can say that of individuals who suffer, some more than others. On the other hand, we cannot rule out the fact that God can and does use such things as natural disasters as a warning and punishment upon the world or a particular part of it. Taken in isolation and without a context, we can only speculate as to whether or not this particular disaster has a more significant and specific meaning than other disasters of the past or present, by way of warning. Our Blessed Mother has warned us, at Fatima for instance, that God uses wars to punish nations for sin. My own view is that much of the world is in sin and rebellion, for one reason or another, and we can expect more such disasters on a large scale. In particular, I think that formerly Catholic nations are particularly deserving of punishment, for having abandoned the one true Faith, as are we of America, for having fallen far ourselves from the path to bringing our Nation to the true Faith. ... ber=423398

    In Christ
    Kim, M

    Let nothing disturb you,
    Let nothing frighten you,
    All things pass away:
    God never changes.
    Patience obtains all things.
    He who has God
    Finds he lacks nothing;
    God alone suffices.
    St. Teresa of Avila
  2. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Two thoughts.


    At the end of the above post is a quote that you've mentioned somewhere before, I believe. It is so reassuring:

    Let nothing disturb you,
    Let nothing frighten you,
    All things pass away:
    God never changes.
    Patience obtains all things.
    He who has God
    Finds he lacks nothing;
    God alone suffices.

    St. Teresa of Avila

    Also: a passage from 2Macabees 6 weighs in on the subject of punishment versus chastisement:

    v. 12-16 ...recognize that these punishments were designed not to destroy but to discipline our people. In fact, not to let the impious alone for long, but to punish them immediately, is a sign of great kindness. For in the case of the other nations, God waits patiently to punish them until they have reached the full measure of their sin; but he does not deal in this way with us, in order that he may not take vengeance on us afterward when our sins have reached their height. Therefore he never withdraws his mercy from us. Though he disciplines us with calamities, he does not forsake his own people.

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

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