"Can one be critical of the Pope" by Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by lynnfiat, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    No, picadillo, but always remember that the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned did follow the rules but failed to follow the Law. That is the danger that Pope Francis is constantly trying to lead us away from.

    I feel I have to come in and support Joe who seems to be fighting a lonely battle. But he is far more eloquent than I. I like his comparison of judge and jury. Yes, we are called to act a bit like a member of a jury but never to judge.
     
    kathy k likes this.
  2. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    If God calls any one of us tonight, how are we going to explain our attitude towards Holy Father, the man He has chosen for these times. A man we are duty bound to love, honour and pray for. Yes, he needs our sincere love and heartfelt payers.

    Faith, Hope and Charity are as old as Christiandom and still Valid.

    When we are weak, Christ is at His most powerful. Holy Father may be THE most powerful instrument in the service of Christ EVER, if some of the posts here are truly well discerned.

    Who is like God. :cool:
     
    Joe Crozier and kathy k like this.
  3. little me

    little me Archangels

    Did God choose Pope Francis? I was under the impression (as is Pope Benedict 16) that the cardinals choose the Pope. Does God infringe on their free will at the conclave?
     
  4. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    The reality is - I could be offering my Rosaries and little sacrifices for the Holy Father as a gesture of love and honour and hold him in dearest affection. But no one sees this only God.

    But because I might have an issue or two with his style of leadership which I always try to do in a charitable manner then one could easily be judged a Pharisee.

    All is not just black and white.

    Love is indeed a funny old thing!!
     
    Julia likes this.
  5. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    Apostasy is the repudiation of the faith, of Christ and in today's world that repudiation has come in subtly through a substitution of our great faith for an exsanguinated carcass in many parts of the Catholic world.

    I can tell you this with absolute certainty and I am paraphrasing Father Malachi Martin here if some of our faithful dead from yesteryear aka 60 years or so were to go randomly into one of our churches to assist at Sunday mass there is no doubt they would think the great apostasy is well under way.
    BTW I'm no sedevscantist or a so called hard core tradionalist. I'm a simple catholic making a simple observation.
     
    Praetorian likes this.
  6. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I agree Julia, This is a good point you raise. None of us knows the day or the hour when they shall be called. Do not be caught with an unjust criticism on your soul. Many here have valid concerns about what is going on in the Church and discussion of this is fine within limits. The fact is that this Pope has not tried to bind the faithful to anything which goes against the Traditions of the Church. If he or a future Pope does then we can all discuss it at that time. Right now though people are arguing over things the Pope has done or said that are non-binding or what he may do in the future. It is fine for us not to agree with where he is coming from personally but let us always remember to show respect and honor when we speak of him.

    One barometer I always use to see if an issue is worth criticizing the Pope about is, "What would Sr. Lucy say if I was talking about it with her?"

    For good or ill, he is the man Christ has chosen for this time in Church history. Who can know the mind of God? What we do know is that the Church is on it's way up Calvary and that in a certain sense this is God's will. Like Christ's body was brutally wracked to the point of death, so will it be with the Church. It must be this way.
     
    PotatoSack, Sam, Julia and 1 other person like this.
  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    If you ask the wrong question you will always get the wrong answer . Fr Joe was asked the wrong question. No one has alleged even in the wider Church that the Pope has promulgated false Doctrine ex Cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) .

    You slant a question , you get a slanted answer. That's not Fr Joe's fault , it's the fault of the one who asked the slanted question in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    Julia likes this.
  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

    If a wolf gets into the sheepfold, the sheep dog barks. That's what sheep dogs do.

    Don't kick the poor dog for waking you up and bringing you the bad news.
    Its not his fault the wolf got in.

    Kick the wolf.
    [​IMG]
     
    Julia likes this.
  9. Basto

    Basto Guest

    [​IMG]
    Oranges from Algarve

    I must remember you people that we recognize the true and the false prophets by their fruits, not by their actions, neither by their preaching. I invite you to focus your discussion on the fruits of this so called “new pastoral” and I must remember you that, relating to the hot topics of the moment, the good fruits should be:
    • conversions to the Catholic Faith
    • the reunion of divorced spouses
    • the abandon of the homosexual behaviors
    • the rejection of the socialism or other materialist ideologies
    Please bring us showcases, samples from your relatives and friends, stories about people that you know to wash way any doubts from our souls and give up with this “judgment” thing. Or maybe we didn’t get to the harvest yet.
     
    Julia likes this.
  10. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    So if the Holy Spirit is working in us when we try to discern what we hear and read. Could the same Holy Spirit have been redundant while the election was going on to elect a new Pope. Hopefully He was there too.

    But we might be on a trial to test our Trust in the Power of God to save. Rather than trusting in our own power. Just a thought.
     
  11. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    We either got the Pope we deserve or the one we need. One day we will know for sure. What we know now, FOR SURE, is that Pope Francis is Peter on this earth at the moment. And we are called to honor, love and pray for him.
     
    Praetorian, PotatoSack, Sam and 4 others like this.
  12. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    Airing your issues in a charitable manner does not make you a Pharisee.
     
    Sam, miker and Joe Crozier like this.
  13. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    On a lighter note. Can you imagine what the upper crust in Jerusalem thought when they saw Jesus ride into town on a donkey.

    If they had an internet in those days....:eek:

    And you have to hear what Marino Restreppo had to say about the donkey that Jesus rode that day in one of his talks.

    The donkey thought the big fuss and Hosanna's were all about him...:ROFLMAO::rolleyes:

    How wrong was that there donkey.
     
    kathy k and Joe Crozier like this.
  14. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Well, since we're looking on the bright side................

    Could this speech be a warning to the exclusive so-called Catholic institutes of learning that their days are numbered? A couple of universities spring to mind, like the one where they hid the crucifix to enable Obama speak. Is there any hope that the Church might actually own that property and, given the Holy Father's emphasis on the poor, it could be turned into accommodation for the homeless or refugees? Now, that would really lift my spirits.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    kathy k and Julia like this.
  15. Joe Crozier

    Joe Crozier Guest

    Thank you for your support David and to all those on this forum who bear the load of loyalty to Pope Francis. I was once told that the only thing I needed to know about God was that I was not God. This morning the thought crossed my mind that one of the reasons Jesus told us not to judge was that in doing so we were taking over the role that is proper to God alone: he is the One True Judge - the only one in possession of all the facts. In doing this we are claiming equality with God which of course is blasphemy. Instead of overtly doing this Jesus humbled himself to death even to death on a cross, for us. So if we judge as we think God judges, we are somehow blaspheming. When Jesus forgave the sins of the man lowered through the roof to be healed the Jews present who heard him immediately accused him of blasphemy. The competence to forgive sins (and to confer authority on others to forgive sins) belongs to God Himself. By forgiving the man's sins Jesus was revealing his own Divine identity. This was not lost on the Jews. Similarly when we judge we are blaspheming. I am not God and to say I can by take God's place as judge is to me both a lie and an insult to God. It is blasphemy. Jesus does not want us to blaspheme, to insult His Heavenly Father, and so he tells us "Judge not lest ye be judged." Being incompetent to judge we attract judgement according to our standards and ways rather then the ways and standards of God. Neither, I believe does He want us to insult Our Holy Father.
    Members of a jury are are charged with the duty of considering the evidence as impartially as possible and coming to a place that is beyond reasonable doubt. God's judgement is beyond all doubt. We are not able to reach this place. Criminal liability depends on evidence of not only the guilty act (actus reus) but also of the guilty mind (mens rea). In my view there is no evidence whatsoever that demonstrates these in the life of Pope Francis. Not guilty as far as I am concerned. Other members of the jury may differ. That is their right, their responsibility.
     
  16. picadillo

    picadillo Powers


    So David, because I believe that what the pope has been saying is confusing, that means I am judging him. Is that what you are saying?
     
  17. Infant Jesus of Prague

    Infant Jesus of Prague The More you Honor Me The More I will Bless Thee

    Conclave 2013...Cardinals of the World calling out to the Holy Spirit for guidance. Inside the Sistene Chapel THE Final Judgement...Cardianl Dolan gave a Great talk on this moment, about his duties to choose a candidate for Pope.

    Conclave - Hymnus - Veni, creator Spiritus

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...xEgpg&list=PLdboP6bvRTSeZwC09NbZCyHcOQ_gchX6r
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
    Joe Crozier, miker and Julia like this.
  18. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I wasn't referring to the question but Father Joseph's wonderful answer which managed to cover much more ground than was asked of it and I thought gave us all very helpful guidelines in how to approach positive or negative commentary on the Pope, particularly in the differentiating of the message from the messenger. I thought the quotation from St Catherine, of whom I have read your own expressed admiration, especially inspiring. My read is that we need not hold our tongues about views and opinions of the pope that are not in the ex-cathedra realm, but must continue to respect the man and the office. Insults, unproven accusations and disrespectful use of his surname should not be acceptable.
     
  19. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Our Lord said in His own lifetime. "The poor, you will always have with you"

    That tells me there is never going to be a world without poor in it. We will always be able to exercise Mercy and Charity with integrity.

    But to those who are ashamed of Him, He has said He will be ashamed of them when they meet their Judge. A very scary prospect for whoever was responsible for hiding that crucifix.
     
  20. Infant Jesus of Prague

    Infant Jesus of Prague The More you Honor Me The More I will Bless Thee

    Julia, I never thought of that event with Obama at ND how you just explained! Meanwhile, outside Dr Alan Keys, a genious in my opinion and very Devout Catholic Man was arrested for praying his rosary outside in protest against BHO... he lost to BHO in the Illinois sentate election. He warned BHO was a communist and would destroy America before BHO was even elected... God Bless Dr Keyes!!!!

    [​IMG]
     
    Joe Crozier, Julia and Praetorian like this.

Share This Page