Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Mac, Aug 28, 2015.
OOKKKKay, you asked for it MacFrodo - feel the love.
I would have made my exchange with BH a private conversation if it was meant as anything else but a trip down memory lane. You can take away my access Padraig but as old Mel says, you can't take our freedom. I was listening to "Grace" sung by Anthony Kearns on utube. Beautiful words to a beautiful story. The video is accompanied by a written account of its background. (Google story of Grace sung by Anthony Kearns to see the text) Padraig should have learned better. Thank you for trying to soothe the rough waters. You did a good job. I won't disappear.
Someone who commits a mortal sin may not know it is a mortal sin due to invincible ignorance. So for me it is useful to distinguish between actual mortal sin and objective mortal sin.
An actual mortal sin is an objective mortal sin committed with full knowledge of its grave immorality and freely chosen ( 'moral act' ). Only actual mortal sin deprives the soul of grace and without repentance the soul goes to Hell.
An objective mortal sin is a chosen act which is gravely immoral but because we live in a sinful secular society many lack full knowledge of the gravity of the sin (invincible ignorance). Their choice is an objective mortal sin but not an actual mortal sin.
With regard to your point about immoral acts you say 'only when these three conditions are met can we talk of an immoral act'.
I don't believe that is the teaching of the Church.
When the moral object is evil, nothing in the intention or circumstances can justify the act.
That is why the Church teaches that contraception is always immoral.
“the intrinsic evil of contraception” (Vademecum for Confessors, n. 4.)
“intrinsically against nature … a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.” (Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii, n. 54.)
“intrinsically immoral” (Pope Pius XII, Address to Midwives.)
“intrinsically wrong” (Pope Paul VI, Humanae Vitae, n. 14.)
“intrinsically immoral” (Compendium of the Catechism, n. 498.)
“intrinsic unlawfulness of contraception” (Pope John Paul II, Speeches, 27 Feb. 1998.)
“intrinsically evil acts … something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order” (Pope John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, n. 80.)
“intrinsically immoral” (Pope John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio,
It's time he learnt to apologise. He's old enough.
Thats solid Catholic teaching Garabandal. Im not sure BH is open to that. Have you got anything watered down?
Ha, ha - he's older than me.
One needs a tough skin on this forum.
Ha, ha Mac my head is exploding as it is.
I am having to dig into my brain to even understand BH as he has been formally trained in theology.
I am trying my best, I really am.
Mortal sin has to be
(a) "grave matter", (b) have full understanding by the individual and , (c) full consent given by the individual.
Praise God for His instruction to Our Holy Mother Church on this matter.
God is Love and He sees all.
Jesus said; Go tell the good news to all people because He wanted his love known!
He wanted the truth known!
In Hebrews we are told that because of Christ's cross we are now not subject to the law because we are no longer babies that require mothers milk [ which is the law], because Gods law is now written in our hearts and our minds. How Stupendous.
So why Does the church still have so many laws?
It is due to the fact that we are unfaithful to the cross of Christ.
The Cross of Christ teaches love.
And we still do not love as Christ taught, through His cross and so we still need laws!
Many people are still deprived of the knowledge of the cross and this great love of God.
Why are so many deprived of this knowledge? It is because we sin and we are so hard to teach!
Therefore the Church in Her wisdom and Love has given us laws, and magnificently laws with clauses to accommodate the many who have not been privileged to know the Cross of Christ.
God alone knows the realities that affect every individuals life, therefore all is relative to God.
If I was raised a Hindu without knowledge of Christ and I died at the age of 9 years, God would judge me totally different to the person that was born a Catholic who had been given much material and spiritual graces and who dies after the age of 70 years!
One must put all of scripture together to get the big picture!
Many people we see as living in sin are unaware of that they are living in sin, because of past inhumane circumstances that they have lived through and also because they have not been privileged to know the cross of Christ and therefore their great worth.
This is not what Our Lord envisaged from the beginning!
He wants all to know the truth and since His love was made manifest in the cross, we are the privileged ones who have this truth written in our hearts and in our minds and the law no longer applies to us, for the Law will no longer condemn us but our very hearts will condemn us instead.
The law of our Church is there to protect the many individuals that do not know about Christ and His Cross and the brilliant clauses that the Holy Catholic Church has placed in these laws, address the needy and the marginalized, and some of these people are in our own homes!
Love them, put your love into action, for in loving them you are loving God Himself!
Modern Catholic Dictionaryby Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
MORTAL SIN. An actual sin that destroys sanctifying grace and causes the supernatural death of the soul. Mortal sin is a turning away from God because of a seriously inordinate adherence to creatures that causes grave injury to a person's rational nature and to the social order, and deprives the sinner of a right to heaven.
The terms mortal, deadly, grave, and serious applied to sin are synonyms, each with a slightly different implication. Mortal and deadly focus on the effects in the sinner, namely deprivation of the state of friendship with God; grave and serious refer to the importance of the matter in which a person offends God. But the Church never distinguishes among these terms as though they represented different kinds of sins. There is only one recognized correlative to mortal sin, and that is venial sin, which offends against God but does not cause the loss of one's state of grace. (Etym. Latin mors, death.)
Marriage is not for eternity. It says so in th Bible. There is no marriage in heaven. That is why a widow can remarry after her husband dies.
The Church also says that children born of a marriage that is later declared null are not considered illegitimate.
Annulment is not a mortal sin.
I would suspect that the militant members of the homosexual lobby within and without the Church who are trying to subvert Her moral doctrine to within the Gates of Hell possess 100% consent and understanding. It is a calculated and deliberate policy.
That's a good insight. I have come to the conclusion that the 1984 consecration did have some effect, but since it wasn't done as Our Lady asked it was imperfect. Hence we have not seen the fruits promised. That being said it does appear there were some fruits. Perhaps the extra 2 decades are one of them.
Don't worry Garabandal, just because someone is trained in theology doesn't make them right. Cardinal Kasper is a trained theologian, St. Faustina was not.
I think the theologian should have an attitude of servitude towards the Church and also a desire to serve Jesus Christ, the way the truth and the life. I suspect that humility should be one of the key characteristics of anyone who wants to engage in the business of theology.
As for myself I am just an amateur trying to prayerfully make sense of what the Church actually teaches.
BH, I don't disagree with what you have said, but sin is determined by our knowledge at the time. If a Baptist believes that drinking alcohol is against God's will, but he goes ahead and drinks it, it is a sin for him, even though in reality it is not against God's will to drink alcohol in moderation. If someone comes up to him and says, "Here, drink this mystery liquid which I obtained from the liquor store.", and he says to himself, "hmmm, this could be alcohol, but maybe it's not" and then he drinks it anyway, he's guilty of sin.
In the same way, for someone who was already married, before they get an annulment, they cannot PRESUME the result that their current marriage is invalid. In that uncertain situation, if they have sexual relations, they know that it might be considered adultery. To commit that act in an uncertain situation is a grave offense. It isn't the way you are envisioning....which is basically "well, I rolled the dice here and slept with this person....now I sit back and wait to see if it was a sin or not."
I am struggling a bit at the moment Jerry. To be honest I find it difficult to even turn on my computer. Our Lady explained to me several times in prayer that the day would come when the devil would cause such harm in this place that nearly everyone woudl turn against it and against me.
If you look at current events in Medugorje you cna see the devils strategy which also applies to here. If it were up to me I would lock the forum for a year or so to quiet it down. It has become too confrontational. This was not Mary's intention in the first place. I was thinking of starting a little spiritual blog called , 'Crown of Stars' which will be much more in line with Our Lady's intention. But I will wait and pray for a while and see what she wants.
We should, none of us be scandalised by these things it is part of the greater spiritual war around us. I belive at the coming synod we will see this war in all its fierceness buring brightest. Last night I constantly prayered for Poep Francis. He is surrounded by the greatest dangers on all sides. He is an inspiration , he never gives up.
Neither should we.
But I am praying to Mary for guidance on how to proced, to discover what she wants.
I am aware that times are critical and we all of us have ,very, very little time left before events fully unfold. This makes me hesitate and wonder. The devil knows this too.
Please pray for me and the forum. .Especially pray for Pope Francis who is surrounded on every side by great evil.
We have very little time left before the great events. Before the storm breaks.
I would humbly submit that I hope you leave the forum up. If we Catholics can't learn to be charitable, forgiving (and apologizing) to our fellow devout Catholics, what hope does the world have since we are unfit to be witnesses to others? I am hoping that we can all learn that here.
Padraig, this is your forum and of course you can do what you will with it, but coming as someone who is newly back to the faith I would beg you to keep it open in the future even if there is arguing. It helped me a lot to find the resources I needed to find out what was going on in the Church and the world when I came back.
In the future you may need stronger limitations, even throwing people off more, but during this time there are few places to connect with Catholics who hold true to the faith. The future will be even darker. I am sure the devil is loving sowing confusion throughout the Church and the forum, but I am sure he would love it even more if it and others like it were closed down, thus keeping the faithful in the dark. I will pray for you and the forum.
If I were a guy, this would be me tonight reading all of this. lol Somehow this is the inner me.
Me pontificating. Can't find a woman I identify with that is slothful but earnest looking .
Separate names with a comma.