A Perspective on Obedience to World Powers

Discussion in 'Coffee House' started by PurpleFlower, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I read 1 Peter today in the Bible and was absolutely knocked over the head by what it said. It has greatly affected my outlook on the scary and unjust rise to power of Biden and the elites. It seems right now the Christian response is generally to fight, and to call on God to avenge our unfair treatment (the stolen election, forced mask-wearing, repercussions for not taking the vaccine, etc), but look at what St. Peter says in 1 Peter 2:11-24:

    Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
    11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

    18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    22 “He committed no sin,
    and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

    23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

    This has really struck me, because I'm not really hearing this kind of advice or way of thinking from Christians or Catholics right now. It's making me really reflect on my own attitude and it's strangely really comforted me today. God expects us to be humble and obedient (in all but sin, of course) to even cruel and unjust leaders. And even if Biden stole the election, He couldn't do so without God's allowing it... Which means God has given us Biden as our leader--quite possibly for punishment and purification--and it would be of much more worth to our souls and others to be displaying meekness and charity toward him than this continuous complaining, fear, and rebellious spirit our fellow Christians are encouraging right now.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Give to God what is God's. Live in God's will.
     
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  3. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 + To Jesus through Mary @-}--

    I'm taking it day by day.

    I don't hate Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, but I also don't personally respect them or agree with their intentions.

    I will pray for them that they'll have some changes of heart before too much damage is inflicted by their inane policies.
     
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  4. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 + To Jesus through Mary @-}--

    Should add that this is by the grace of our Lord and Lady; otherwise I'd be something of a bundle of nerves. It's Their grace on me.
     
  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Matt 24
    “He that shall endure to the end, shall be saved.”
     
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  6. Christy Beth

    Christy Beth Principalities

    So, this virus stuff going around is allowed by God too. It is a test of our faith and our courage. Will we stand for God, and what does that stand look like?
     
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  7. Clare A

    Clare A Archangels

    Yes we should be obedient to authorities - until they ask us to do evil. Could we have obeyed the criminals who ran Nazi Germany? (Pope Benedict's father referred to them as 'criminals'). I'm wondering how far Christians can go in accepting an immoral regime, and what would licit objection look like.

    The traditional solution is: vote for pro-life candidates. But what if one's vote isn't counted, or switched to the other person? Is it licit for a Christian to wear a cap with 'Not my President' on it?

    Maybe we have to endure persecution. I'm trying to think of any revolt from within a Christian context and can only think of the peaceful Pilgrimage of Grace, which was put down brutally by Henry VIII.
     
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  8. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 + To Jesus through Mary @-}--

    Yes, that's been in mind.

    Agreed.
     
  9. Christy Beth

    Christy Beth Principalities

    I think that's one concern with Biden coming into office. He has been quoted as saying that if he and Harris ever disagree on anything, he'll step down. What does that mean? It would mean that she would then be president. And just look at her record in California. No regard to the rights of the people. And she's been said to be rabidly anti-Catholic. That is what scares me the most. Time for some serious prayer that this country won't fall into chaos because of these two. And that we'll get through it with our freedom OF religion still intact.
     
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  10. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I think what I'm realizing is God is much more in control than we Christians often act like (me included!). The saints will tell you that we should be so perfectly accepting of all that happens to us--good or bad--as being God's will, for the good of our souls...to the point that literally nothing disturbs our peace. And all throughout history, Christians have had to endure persecution and brutal rulers. Their response has been to continue worshipping God the best they can and praying for courage and rescue, but being humble, obedient citizens to whomever is in charge (except for doing evil, like worshipping false gods or hurting others). We should obey until we're ordered to do evil, in which case we refuse and willingly accept imprisonment or death.

    It seems that God often allows His people to live under wicked rulers because we grow spiritually and are purified of our selfishness and laziness. Just like He'll often allow saints to be placed under superiors that pick on them or treat them downright cruelly, in order to make His saints even holier and more humble. So the proper response for us may be to stand for what's pleasing to God and morally upright but also humbly accept whatever comes to us personally, as being a means from God of purifying our weak souls.
     
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  11. Christy Beth

    Christy Beth Principalities

    Yet at times we are called to speak out against any evil. Some of who died during the evil days of WW2 were those who spoke out against the Nazi regime. They were imprisoned and sometimes even tortured, and died in standing for what was right. Others died for working against the Nazi's. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of Corrie ten Boom. Her book, "The Hiding Place," recounts the dark days of Holland during WW2 and the death of her father in prison and her sister in the concentration camp. Their crime? Hiding and helping the Jews that came their way. Her father was around 80 I think when he died, her sister almost 60. Anyway, they took a stand and suffered for it. But God was with them every step of the way. Corrie had an amazing story to tell of hope in the deepest hell man can devise. I'm not going to say we will have to suffer as much. But if called on, I hope and pray I can face it with the same faith and courage as did Corrie and her family.
     
  12. Mario

    Mario Powers

    PF,

    Though there is debate on the dating of this letter, certain Catholic sources put it around 63/64 AD. The most traditional date ascribed to Peter's martyrdom is later in 64 AD. In this particular persecution, the issue was not worship of the emperor, but simply Nero painting Christians as the source of the fire which burned down a good section of Rome. Still, martyrs they were, and if the story is correct that Peter returned to the city to stand with those being martyred, he proved to be an example of genuine leadership and servanthood! A true living out of v.17 above.

    I think also that we need to reject a sanitized version of the American Revolution which is often directly or indirectly upheld as the standard by which to make a choice of how to move forward. There were a large number of American colonists who remained loyal to England. Many relocated to either Canada or back to England and some who remained were in a sense persecuted (ex. tar and feathered and homes burned). I think it far better to take a stand based on the first 10 amendments to the Constitution (the Bill of Rights) rather than the war.

    I believe the "election" of Biden falls under God's permissive Will, where we as a nation are eating the just oats of our current rebellion against God's Holiness. If as a whole we were a people on our knees, this disintegration of the Republic would not be accelerating. So what should the faithful do? If Trump fails to pull a rabbit out of his hat, then the only way a serious rebellion would take place is if sufficient elements of the military would rise up- a short but bloody struggle would ensue. I believe the powers-that-be will purge the military pretty quickly to avoid an insurrection, then tighten the screws on the rest of us. It would be a slow, steady process, but faster than the frog in a pot of water.

    Finally, there will be the Fr. Altmans and Cardinal Burkes who will continue to speak out and resist. If we choose to back them to the hilt, then outright persecution will take place for those of us who do. In that we will have to choose. Where stand ye?

    Safe Under Mary's Mantle!
     
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  13. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I literally just finished reading this book today. It affected me deeply and I'm passing it on to my brother-in-law.
     
  14. Donna259

    Donna259 Archangels

    I love that book.....so amazing
     
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  15. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 + To Jesus through Mary @-}--

    Yes.

    She was well known to Protestant denoms when I was a kid/teen in the 1970s/80s.

    Also made into a film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hiding_Place_(film)

    I remember Corrie recounting her brother's time at a university, maybe 10 years prior to the rise of Hitler, wherein he warned of a great evil (rabid anti-Semitism) being seeded in the minds of students...
     
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  16. Christy Beth

    Christy Beth Principalities

    We were living in Alaska when the movie came out. My mom and I were attending a Baptist Church at the time, and the church had gotten free tickets to the movie, so I went with the group that saw the movie. I like the book better, it goes more into detail. Nothing wrong with the movie, but the book just covers more. I've read the book several times, and I once had a copy of her book "Tramp for the Lord," in which she covers some of her travels after the war. Anyway, it was an amazing story. One that I hope we don't have to live out here in America. But it may come to that.
     
  17. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    This morning while praying the Liturgy of the hours, in morning prayer was Psalm 5. Please read it, it was perfectly ordained for today. It jumped off the page.
     
  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I just read it! Thanks.
     
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  19. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    This has played out before several times. The English monarchy in the 1500's was headed this direction for a time with their White Hart pins and sigma's of loyalty to the King all over the place.

    [8] And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world. [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

    No Salute.jpg
     
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  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Great post!(y)
     
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