I will say this much about following the pope regardless. Prophecy is very clear that at some point a 'false prophet' an anti-pope will arise. For this reason it is essential for all of us to know one thing for sure, church doctrine can never change for it comes not from man, but from God himself. If/when church doctrine changes, via a pope or a council, it is anathema. This is my bench mark for truth and I will never bend from it. Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. DOCTRINE. Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. This teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. (Etym. Latin doctrina, teaching.) http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/ddict.htm
It is my understanding that yes an anti-pope will arise but this will not be a pope that is elected by a conclave and inspired by the Holy Spirit that then turns bad as in past anti-popes but a person who claims the vacated throne because the true Pope will have left Rome, then be murdered and another will take the true pope's place per St. John Bosco's (Peter the Second who is aligned with Charles the Monarch) vision while the anti pope will claim the throne of Peter in Rome.
I agree with you Andy that this is the most plausible scenario. But the fact that a validly elected pope has in the past embraced heresy and has been condemned as a heretic makes the possibility of it happening again, especially in these times when confusion will be widespread, at least valid (in my view anyway). I also agree with Fatima in that we should all know our faith so we won't fall prey to the cunning wolves in sheep clothing - whether it be an anti-pope, wayward cardinal, sympathetic parish priest, or otherwise. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07452b.htm
This statement is correct in the context that only NEW issues will be judged upon and the faithful will be guided. We have seen many of these NEW issues in the last 100 years including cloning, human organ transplants, reproductive fertility experiments, DNA, and well, you get the picture. In no way can a doctrine of Jesus and the Apostolic church be CHANGED. The Cardinals and Bishops know this more than anyone, and so any Pope that tries to change any of these truths held by the Church would make himself a heretic and have to be disciplined as such to protect the faithful and to protect the Truth of Christ being passed on to further generations.
The thing is , if we do not follow our Holy Father, the Pope, 'Dear Jesus on Earth', as St Catherine of Sienna called him, who on Earth would we follow? He is the Shepherd we the sheep. Jesus gave Him to us as our Vicar, Christ did not set limits on this and say, 'Up to a certain point'. No I prayerfully believe David is right. We must follow and obey Peter. I can't think of a single saint who would have disagreed. None of us will be sent to hell for obedience to the Vicar of Christ ; quite a few of us might end up in the flames for disobedience. 'Thou art Peter...'
I think the link is a better bet, since I"m not an expert by any means on this aspect. Well I truly hope that this never comes to pass. But I'm not so sure that being obedient into heresy would be the best course of action if that ever was to happen. I hesitate to post any comments from Saints or popes that say otherwise as I don't want to seem like I am advocating being disobedient to the Church. Pope Francis is our pontiff and to him we should be obedient. There has been no reason up to this point to think otherwise. May it be so in the future.
This does not necessarily refer to the Pope. It could mean that the Vatican could be hijacked and a false Pope put in place whilst at the same time a valid Pope resides elsewhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy I do not think the anti-Christ is in the world today as Catholic prophecy indicates he comes after the era of peace.
We have the Doctrine of Infallibility to protect us. St Pope John 23rd had a wonderful motto, 'Obedience and Peace'. God does not expect us to jump through hoops. Let us simply be obedient follow our Shepherd and be at Peace. The devil does complicated, we don't need too. I think we are all starting to tie ourselves up into knots with a lot of this stuff and my conscience is starting to trouble me about it. I just don't believe God needs us double guessing the Papacy like this.
This fall there is to be a discussion in the Vatican on modern social issues, such as Divorce and remarriage, Gay unions, and birth control. Perhaps the Pope is going to let this be discussed so that he can re-affirm the teachings of Christ on all these issues and finally put all the speculation to rest. Perhaps the Warning will occur at this time so that along with the Pope, God Himself will convict souls of their sin, and put them again on the right path.
Yes, Peter is the rock. Jesus Christ, the eternal Word, the way the truth and the life cannot be wrong! You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not overcome it. This is a matter of faith in the words of the Eternal Word of God, Jesus Christ, second person of the Blessed Trinity. Ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia, et ibi ecclesia vita eterna. Where there is Peter there is the Church,where there is the Church there is life eternal! — St. Ambrose of Milan Where Peter is, there is the church … he who is not with the Pope is not with God, and who desires to be with God must be with the Pope. (Sister Lucia of Fatima)
And for any sedevacantists out there (on the world wide web) you are anathema for your obstinate refusal to believe the words of Jesus Christ. I cannot for the life of me understand how some people who call themselves Catholic cannot understand nor take in the words of Jesus Christ in regard to the Petrine ministry. And it also surprises me that Protestants who supposedly love the Bible cannot see this either! And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…
The issue of Papal Infallibility evokes strong reactions from those who oppose it. This is usually due to a misunderstanding of what the Church means by "Papal Infallibility." The most common misconception is that the Church claims that the pope himself is infallible, that in all things he is incapable of error. This, of course, is not true! It is a necessity of Christian theology that every person be allowed the exercise of free will. Everyone, the pope included, must be free to accept or reject Christ for himself. If God were to make the pope infallible in the ultimate sense, he would be depriving him of his free will. Infallibility does not mean that a pope is incapable of sin. All popes are human and therefore sinners. Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired. Papal infallibility does not involve any special revelation from God. A pope learns about his faith in the same way that anyone else does – he studies. Infallibility cannot be used to change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. It can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). Infallibility does not mean that a pope cannot err when he speaks as a private teacher. As a man he is fallible and capable of error. Infallibility does not guarantee that a pope will officially teach anything. However, when he does teach he is protected. If he decides to teach the truth, the Holy Spirit allows it. If he decides to teach error, either knowingly or unknowingly, the Holy Spirit will stop him. Infallibility is not something that endows a pope with divine powers, but rather it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from the human frailties of a pope. All Christians believe that God used men infallibly in writing Scripture. Why then is it so hard to believe that He would work through men to protect it from corruption? Surely such a protection was implied when Jesus said to His disciples, "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16). The First Vatican Council taught that three conditions must be met in order for a pronouncement to be considered infallible: 1. The pope must speak ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) in his official capacity. 2. The decision must be binding on the whole Church. 3. It must be on a matter of faith or morals. The first two conditions can be reasonably deduced from Matthew 16:19: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The acts of binding and loosing in this context would by necessity be something more than casual remarks. The previous verse begins with Jesus saying, "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church" (16:18). Thus the acts of binding or loosing would have to be official and meant for the whole Church. The third condition stems from the obvious fact that Christian teaching is primarily a matter of faith and morals. Christianity's main objectives have always been getting people to heaven (faith) and teaching them how to live here on earth (morals). Infallibility is also extended to the college of bishops when they, as a body, teach something in union with the pope. Collegial authority is usually exercised in an ecumenical council just as it was at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-29). Upon leaving the earth Jesus' final command to His apostles was to make disciples of all nations, "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:20). Are we to believe that Jesus left us no means of knowing exactly what He commanded? That would make His parting statement nonsense. The Catholic Church believes the Bible when it teaches that: 1. Jesus requires that we obey all that He commanded (Matthew 28:20). 2. Jesus gives us the grace to obey all that He commanded (Philippians 4:13). 3. Jesus provides us a means of knowing what He commanded (Matthew 16:15-19). Early Christian writers bear witness to the Church's infallibility. Cyprian declares: "If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 251 AD). Irenaeus writes: "Where the charismata of the Lord are given, there must we seek the truth, with those to whom belongs the ecclesiastical succession from the Apostles, and the unadulterated and incorruptible word. It is they who …are the guardians of our faith…and securely expound the Scriptures to us" (Against Heresies 4:26:5, 180-199 AD).
Again this is doing complicated. We do not need to do complicated. Like little children we simply need to be obedient.
I am afraid I will have to close down any future discussions that seem to me to have an agenda in any way of suggesting that Our Holy Father, Francis is in any way a false Pope. I have been conscious for some time of a group on the forum who seem to me to have an agenda of undermining Pope Francis. It is time to choose sides and I choose the Holy Father. I am loyal to the Pope. I have decided after prayerful reflection to end the membership of any members who would suggest such a thing. I don't mind a certain amount of discussion, but it seems to me this amounts in many posts to much, much more than this. It is only a small group, but they are persistent. Well this is my first and only warning, I will start pruning members who defy me on this. There are other Catholic forums were this will be permitted but not here. God bless and pray for our Pope.
I may have missed something, but I have not read where anyone has been saying Pope Francis is a false pope. What did I miss?
The consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has been accepted just as Lucia has stated.
How can anyone honestly believe that what occurred in the consecrations of the world sufficed the requests from Mary. I just don't get it. I have read all the arguments and what the general consensus is, is that this loophole of consecrating the whole world meant Russia too. If Our Lady wanted the whole world consecrated she would have said "world" and not "Russia". Since when does a change like this become allowed? It was taking the easy way out. Besides this Our Lady asked that the consecration would have to be the Pope and every Bishop of every diocese of the world doing the consecration at the same time. How can anyone honestly believe that every Bishop at the same time did this consecration. Is there any proof of this happening? All I can find on this for proof is only Pope Pius XII's consecration of the world in 1942 included substantial involvement of the bishops. Substantial involvement of the bishops is not every bishop. I wish I could believe that this consecration occurred but I just don't see the era of peace in the world the was promised after the consecration. If one claims that this consecration took place in the 80's then I hardly see an era of peace in the world since the 80's. There have been continued wars and conflicts, continued escalating violence and sin, the church has been a mess and far too many Catholics have fallen away or have continued to take communion in a state of mortal sin, how many innocent babies have been aborted around the world? millions!!, how many catholics and christians have been martyered? too many to count. Has there been a growing love of God and love for your neighbor or a growing love of stuff and pride and worldly possessions. Lets talk about the growing number of natural disasters in the world....unprecedented growth in earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes, floods and famines.....etc and all this in the promised era of peace. How could anyone believe that the past 30 years now has been the promised era of peace on earth. This is not heavenly peace if you ask me. Take the blinders off my friends and accept that this has not possibly been done yet. I am 38 years old and what I have noticed in my 38 years is a world full of self love, self pride, self growth and a me me me mentality not a world filled with good and holy people who wish for nothing but to help each other out. Sure there are good people in the world and good deeds but how can anyone sit here today and say that the world is a wonderful God loving and neighbor loving place.
