Hey all, I've been wanting to watch Nefarious for some time and I finally found it on Prime. Excellent movie - the day after I watched it I watched it again with my wife. It's one of those movies the critics hate (mainly, it seems, because they find it 'preachy') but audiences love. {minor spoiler alert} There's one scene that recalls The Screwtape Letters in which the demon explains their origins, fall, and reasons for their war on humanity. Here's (most of) the relevant scene: It brought to mind a conversation I had with my wife years ago. We were discussing why the powers of Hell were assaulting mankind. Hell is Hell and their state won't be made any better by dragging us down with them. Best we could come up with was that misery loves company. But after seeing the above scene I thought more about it and came up with a theory. (Strictly of my own making, not Church teaching, and if I'm contradicting Church teaching do not hesitate to correct me.). According to the movie (and at least some Catholic belief): 1. God created the angels who began to contemplate their own being. 2. They became aware of an immensely powerful will outside their own - God. 3. They learned that they were to worship, adore, and serve God. 4. Lucifer, in his pride and unwilling to follow point 3, led a rebellion against God whereafter they were expelled from Heaven. 5. This one's an inference from the movie: the demons perhaps thought that they might receive forgiveness and be able to retake their places in Heaven. 6. When mankind was created the demons realized their sentence was eternal since the places in Heaven vacated by said demons were now going to be occupied by mankind. 7. The demons led man into sin thereby preventing man from taking their place in Heaven. 8. Jesus confounded their plan with His sacrifice on the cross. I thought about all of that a great deal and theorized about why the demons are so aggressive in our present world. God does all thing in measure and without chaos. To me that implies that there are a finite number of places in Heaven that the demons abandoned. As the Millenia pass more and more people are born, live, and die - and at least some take their places in Heaven. As more and more of these finite places are occupied the denizens of Hell become more and more alarmed. Is it possible that once the last place in Heaven is occupied the prophecy in Revelation 20:10 will come to pass? "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." I'd love to hear any commentary from my fellow members, be it in agreement or disagreement. I'm not afraid of being wrong, only uneducated. God Bless! m.
I saw this movie too, and am curious about point 2. Does anyone know where point 2 originates from, because as far as I know we have no creation narrative of the angels.
I read or heard at some point, that lucifer found out he would have to submit to, serve under and would be 'less than' Our Lady and that is when he decided he would not serve and accept his position under a human woman. Anyone else hear this? Thoughts? Also, I believe the angels always knew God and were there to serve Him.
5 is incorrect. The fallen angels have total infused knowledge and therefore knew what the consequences of their rebellion would be they knew because of their infused knowledge there would be no forgiveness for them.This also makes it easier to understand just how evil and terrible they are.to know how good God is to know what their rebellion would lead to and to still make the choice .
The Mystical City of God One creation narrative for the angels is in the Mystical City of God. I'll quote it here with all the usual caveats (non-Scriptural, private revelation, etc.): The angels were created in the empyrean heavens and in the state of grace by which they might be first to merit the reward of glory. For although they were in the midst of glory, the Divinity itself was not to be made manifest to them face to face and unveiled, until they should have merited such a favor by obeying the divine will. The holy angels, as well as the bad ones, remained only a very short time in the state of probation; for their creation and probation with its result were three distinct instants or moments, separated by short intermissions. In the first instant they were all created and endowed with graces and gifts, coming into existence as most beautiful and perfect creatures. Then followed a short pause, during which the will of the Creator was propounded and intimated, and the law and command was given to them, to acknowledge Him as their Maker and supreme Lord, and to fulfill the end for which they have been created. During this pause, instant or interval, Saint Michael and his angels fought that great battle with the dragon and his followers, which is described by the apostle Saint John in the twelfth chapter of the Apocalypse. The good angels, persevering in grace, merited eternal happiness and the disobedient ones, rebelling against God, merited the punishment, which they now suffer. At first they received a more explicit intelligence of the being of God, one in substance, trine in person, and that they were commanded to adore and reverence Him as their Creator and highest Lord, infinite in his essence and attributes. All subjected themselves to this command and obeyed it, but with a certain difference; the good angels obeyed through love and on account of the justice of it, offering their love and good will, freely and admitting and believing what was above their intelligence, and obeying with joy. Lucifer, on the other hand, submitted himself, because the opposite seemed to him impossible. He did not do it with perfect charity, for he, as it were, was divided in his will between himself and the infallible truth of the Lord. In consequence it happened that the precept appeared to him in a measure difficult and violent, and his fulfilling of it was wanting in love and in the desire to do justice. Thus he exposed himself beforehand to the danger of not persevering. Although grace did not leave him on account of this remissness and slowness in the accomplishment of these first acts, nevertheless his bad disposition began with them; for there remained with him a certain weakness and laxity of virtue and spirit, and the perfection of his nature did not shine forth as it should. It appears to me that the effect of this remissness in Lucifer, is similar to that which is caused in the soul by a deliberate venial sin. I do not say that he sinned mortally, nor even venially at that time, since he fulfilled the precept of God; but this fulfillment was remiss and imperfect, springing more from a sense of overwhelming compulsion, than from a loving willingness to obey. Thus he put himself in danger of falling. In the second place, the angels were informed that God was to create a human nature and reasoning creatures lower than themselves, in order that they too should love, fear and reverence God, as their Author and eternal Good. They were informed that these were to stand in high favor, and that the second Person of the blessed Trinity was to become incarnate and assume their nature, raising it to the hypostatic union and to divine Personality; that therefore they were to acknowledge Him as their Head, not only as God, but as God and man, adoring Him and reverencing Him as God–man. Moreover, these same angels were to be his inferiors in dignity and grace and were to be his servants. God gave them an intelligence of the propriety and equity, of the justice and reasonableness of such a position. For the acceptation of the merits foreseen of this Mangod was exhibited to them as the source of the grace which they now possessed and of the glory which they were to obtain. They understood also that they themselves had been, and all the rest of the creatures should be created for his glory, and that He was to be their Head. All those that were capable of knowing and enjoying God, were to be the people of the Son of God, to know and reverence Him as their Chief. These commands were at once given to the angels. To this command all the obedient and holy angels submitted themselves and they gave their full assent and acknowledgment with an humble and loving subjection of the will. But Lucifer, full of envy and pride, resisted and induced his followers to resist likewise, as they in reality did, preferring to follow him and disobey the divine command. This wicked prince persuaded them, that he would be their chief and that he would set up a government independent and separate from Christ. So great was the blindness which envy and pride could cause in an angel, and so pernicious was the infection that the contagion of sin spread among innumerable other angels. Then happened that great battle in heaven, which St. John describes (Apoc. 12). For the obedient and holy angels, filled with an ardent desire of hastening the glory of the Most High and the honor of the incarnate Word, to resist and contradict the dragon, and the permission was granted. But also another mystery was concealed in all this: When it was revealed to the angels that they would have to obey the incarnate Word, another, a third precept was given them, namely, that they were to admit as a superior conjointly with Him, a Woman, in whose womb the Only begotten of the Father was to assume flesh and that this Woman was to be the Queen and Mistress of all the creatures. The good angels by obeying this command of the Lord, with still increasing and more alert humility, freely subjected themselves, praising the power and the mysteries of the Most High. Lucifer, however, and his confederates, rose to a higher pitch of pride and boastful insolence. In disorderly fury he aspired to be himself the head of all the human race and of the angelic orders, and if there was to be a hypostatic union, he demanded that it be consummated in him. The decree constituting him inferior to the Mother of the Incarnate Word, our Mistress, he opposed with horrible blasphemies. Turning against the Author of these great wonders in unbridled indignation and calling upon the other angels, he exhorted them, saying: “Unjust are these commands and injury is done to my greatness; this human nature which Thou, Lord, lookest upon with so much love and which thou favorest so highly, I will persecute and destroy. To this end I will direct all my power and all my aspirations. And this Woman, Mother of the Word, I will hurl from the position in which Thou hast proposed to place Her, and at my hands, the plan, which Thou settest up, shall come to naught.” This proud boast so aroused the indignation of the Lord that in order to humble it, He spoke to Lucifer: “This Woman whom thou refusest to honor, shall crush thy head and by Her shalt thou be vanquished and annihilated (Gen. 3, 15). And if, through thy pride, death enters into the world (Wis. 2, 24), life and salvation of mortals shall enter through the humility of this Woman. Those that are of the nature and likeness of that Man and Woman, shall enjoy the gifts and the crowns, which thou and thy followers have lost.” To all this the dragon, filled with indignation against whatever he understood of the divine will and decrees, answered only with pride and by threatening destruction to the whole human race. The good angels saw the just indignation of the Most High against Lucifer and his apostates and they combated them with the arms of the understanding, reason and truth. The Almighty at this conjuncture worked another wonderful mystery. Having given to all the angels a sufficiently clear intelligence of the hypostatic Union, He showed them the image of the most holy Virgin by means of an imaginary vision (I speak here according to our way of understanding such things). They were shown the perfection of the human nature in the revelation of an image representing a most perfect Woman, in whom the almighty arm of the Most High would work more wonderfully than in all the rest of the creatures. For therein He was to deposit the graces and gifts of his right hand in a higher and more eminent manner. This sign or vision of the Queen of heaven and of the Mother of the incarnate Word was made known and manifest to all the angels, good and bad. The good ones at the sign of it broke forth in admiration and in canticles of praise and from that time on began to defend the honor of the God incarnate and of his holy Mother, being armed with ardent zeal and with the invincible shield of that vision. The dragon and his allies on the contrary conceived implacable hatred and fury against Christ and his most holy Mother. Then happened all that which is described in the twelfth chapter of the Apocalypse, which I will explain, as far as it has been given me. m.
Thank you for this. I have heard something like this story growing up but never knew where it came from.
The Church fathers taught that God created the angels and they were immediately given full knowledge of creation. God presented them with His creation of humans and His plan to become one. God expected the angels to care for the humans. Protect and guide them.. The angels were shocked and some were horrified. Lucifer issued his famous " non serviam". Superior creatures having to minister to such inferior creatures??? Never! So a third of them followed Lucifer into rebellion. They hate us. And their will is fixed. Fr Ripperger talks of this at length. Their only way to get back at God is to hurt what He loves. This is the general outline of the tradition of the Church.
You are right. She is his greatest humiliation. Fr Ripperger goes into this in his talk on Our Mother of Fair Love on you tube.
Now how total could that knowledge be? Surely if their knowledge was total they would know that any rebellion against God would be futile. I read somewhere (can't recall where atm) that the angels were created in a Heaven, just not the fullness of Heaven; they did not enjoy the Beatific Vision in all it's glory. If they had experienced the full Beatific Vision it would have been impossible for them to rebel. I'll have to see if I can recall where I read that. m.
I have heard Fr. Ripperger speak about such things, but never knew the sources for it. I mean, maybe he has received some of this information first hand.
I can say that the film is excellent, especially considering the budget, but also what they conveyed with their message. It should not be seen as a classic horror or something in that genre, but a depiction of the modern world and modern man, the relationship to God, evil and the supernatural that goes beyond human knowledge and leads him to those spheres where he becomes powerless... A depiction of the arrogance and predominance of a man who, in the prism of a materialistic and rational view, does not see and does not believe even with his own eyes in something that goes beyond his beliefs. The demon actually "mocks" and encourages his actions because his role is redundant there. He calls the man because he is already his, he tells him that he will commit three murders that belong to one of the three great evils (abortion, euthanasia and sentencing the innocent for murder). In the end, he kills Edward himself despite the knowledge that he is at least insane according to the psychiatric report, but he does it out of rage and anger after the strangulation attempt. It is fear that paralyzes the mind and leads it into animal behavior where it denies human behavior when it is frightened, and has no solid foundation to cling to. He runs away from reality because he doesn't understand it, and then the death of another is justified for his own peace. Man has exchanged good for evil to such an extent that he does not believe even the demon himself, who does not warn him, but rejoices over his arrogance, which does not allow him to see anything other than what he sets for himself as laws. His intelligence and rational mind are powerless because they encounter something bigger and stronger than themselves, but again they look for evidence to rationalize what they see. The main actor also changed roles, emotions and character brilliantly. For such a low-budget film, they included more or less everything they thought they needed. Of course, it would be great if the film lasted longer, about 30 to 40 minutes, where the action took place over several days. It gained in drama, included Edward's murders and the psychiatrist's meetings with the victims with certain symbolism where the background of the story would be revealed. Maybe more conversations with Edward himself and stories about his childhood, etc. Obviously, everything didn't stop or they felt that the most important thing was said. For understanding angels, there is a great episode from Bishop Sheen
