Challenge: ‘If the Turin Shroud is a forgery, show how it was done’

HeavenlyHosts · Apr 21, 2022

Muzhik said: ↑

True. And the single most important consideration is that there is no "scientific test" for Jesus. You can take a strip of litmus paper and show that a colorless liquid is either a base or an acid; but there is no similar test for Jesus. So we have to rely on circumstantial evidence. And if circumstantial evidence is enough to convict a person of murder, it should be enough to use it to provide evidence, if not proof, of the Resurrection.

(BTW, I have a hardbound copy of "Report on the Shroud of Turin" which is a book that details how the 3-D elements of the Shroud were discovered; how STURP [Shroud of TUrin Research Project] was formed, how the researchers organized and got permission to test the Shroud in the early 70's, and the details of the results of those tests. The book is now out-of-print; however, it is available for free in PDF format on the Internet. I bring this up because the research group organized by the BM vowed to ignore all of the previous research in order to come up with conclusions that were not influenced by previous investigators. Sounds good in theory; lousy in practice. If they HAD looked at the photographic evidence gathered by STURP, they would have found a photo of the Shroud taken under colored light, which clearly shows the Shroud exclusively in red EXCEPT FOR AN ANGLED PIECE RUNNING ALONG ONE SHORT END THAT SHOWED UP AS BLUE. This clearly showed the material there was different from the rest of the Shroud.

Guess which area they used to get their samples for testing.)

Pollens have been found on the Shroud that showed it had been in the eastern Mediterranean region, and specifically in the area now in the State of Israel. Other pollens have marked it as having spent time in Constantinople, before finishing its travels in France.

Photomicrographs of the area mentioned above show that those threads are not part of the original linen weave, but were reconstructed from cotton threads using a technique called "French re-weaving". This was probably done to repair the Shroud after it was damaged by fire during the Middle Ages.

CARBON DATING CANNOT BE USED ON THE SHROUD! A couple of decades back, the cask used to hold the Shroud was showing its age, so the owners arranged to have it cleaned up. Part of that process involved painting the inside with a wood preservative. The manufacturer swore that this preservative would not contaminate anything held in the cask. They either lied or were criminally incompetent. By the time it was discovered that the preservative would "outgas" over time, enough of the preservative had outgassed to the point that the Shroud is hopelessly contaminated, and no further carbon dating would give accurate results.

Perhaps the best evidence so far is that science has advanced enough that you do not HAVE to do carbon dating (which destroys the sample by burning it to get the carbon for dating) to get an accurate date for fabric and other materials. I'm too lazy to look up the details now, but IIRC it involves bombarding the materials with gamma rays (?) and measuring what gets bounced back. The amount of reflected radiation is related to the age of the sample. Tests on the Shroud gave it a date range where the time of the Crucifixion is smack-dab in the middle of the date range.

Check out https://www.shroud.com/ for more info.
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I just read in your post about the pollen attached to the Shroud. I was referring to that. Thanks.

Katfalls · Apr 21, 2022

Many scriptures in the bible tell us to "Seek the Face of God". There are many beautiful devotions to the Holy Face. One of them given to Sister Mary of St.Peter with miraculous, documented outcomes. Our little St.Therese had it included in her religious name, St.Therese of the Child Jesus and the Holy Face. Jesus in his Divine Mercy and Love for us left us several images. One of them, the Veil of Veronica still resides in Rome. It is the sixth station of the cross, and Veronica was not the real name of the woman. Veronica comes from the Greek words which were Vera Icon, meaning adoration of the image. It is in very poor condition and only taken out of its crypt rarely. But miracles are attributed to it, and a vision of Jesus appeared in glory on it in front of a great crowd of people and the vision lasted for quite awhile before fading. The Shroud moved around Europe in secrecy to keep it from being destroyed by invading forces. It, too, has miraculous events surrounding it. The original, faded sepia image was greatly enhanced with the advent of photography. It has received innumerable commentary through time from scientists and doctors who are still amazed by it. The Shroud is a physical representation of Jesus' suffering. The Divine Mercy image is another image requested by Jesus to show his infinite love for us. As humans we have always surrounded ourselves with images of our loved ones and Jesus wants us to have his image , too. We do not worship images but gain comfort from them. I am working on another paper of Our Lady of Guadalupe that has some very profound insights. When I am finished with it, I will share it on this site. ❤️❤️ Kathy Falls, photo restoration specialist, Master Photographer, Master Artist, Master Electronic Imaging, Photographic Craftsman. Devoted to the Holy Face. Author, "Finding The Face Of Jesus".

Luan Ribeiro · Apr 22, 2022

Have there been any restrictions imposed by the Church on the veneration of the shroud throughout history? as it is the instrument that most likely reveals the physical traits of Jesus to us, it is almost impossible not to visualize him with some degree of veneration.

Katfalls · Apr 22, 2022

Luan Ribeiro said: ↑

Have there been any restrictions imposed by the Church on the veneration of the shroud throughout history? as it is the instrument that most likely reveals the physical traits of Jesus to us, it is almost impossible not to visualize him with some degree of veneration.
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I don't think so. It is kept in a church and displayed every few years.

Luan Ribeiro · Apr 22, 2022

Katfalls said: ↑

I don't think so. It is kept in a church and displayed every few years.
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considering that when we see the image we recognize the source of our salvation (through the physical features of Jesus) I was in doubt if there would be a risk of idolatry if the image did not correspond to the time of Our Lord.

DeGaulle · Apr 22, 2022

Dusica said: ↑

Last week I bought a small book named "Stations of the Cross according to the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich". We followed it when we made the stations with my family on Good Friday and it was really enriching to the whole experience.

I have to add that this whole Easter I was very spiritually filled, more than ever in my life. I felt this peace and awe of Our Lord I really forgot to think of the war that is happening in our neighbour's country. And during the Saturday's liturgy I was filled with joy and didn't want it to stop, while other years before the pandemic I thought that it is too long... Thank you Lord that it was possible to attend the liturgy in person after 2 years and that you let me understand it's mysteries more deeper. I hope you all felt it this easter too

But what I wanted to say is that the book had an interesting additional commentary taken from Emmerich's vision regarding the last station when Jesus is laid in the tomb.
It was about a miraculous scene after Our Lord's body was anointed, balmed and wrapped in burial cloths. This scene may describe the creation of the image on the shroud. I was able to find that part of the vision here: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/anne/passion66.shtml

"The Blessed Virgin, the holy women, the men-all were kneeling round the body of Jesus to take their farewell of it, when a most touching miracle took place before them. The sacred body of Jesus, with all its wounds, appeared imprinted upon the cloth which covered it, as though he had been pleased to reward their care and their love, and leave them a portrait of himself through all the veils with which he was enwrapped. With tears they embraced the adorable body, and then reverently kissed the wonderful impression which it had left. Their astonishment increased when, on lifting up the sheet, they saw that all the bands which surrounded the body had remained white as before, and that the upper cloth alone had been marked in this wonderful manner. It was not a mark made by the bleeding wounds, since the whole body was wrapped up and covered with sweet spices, but it was a supernatural portrait, bearing testimony to the divine creative power ever abiding in the body of Jesus. I have seen many things relative to the subsequent history of this piece of linen, but I could not describe them coherently. After the resurrection it remained in the possession of the friends of Jesus, but fell twice into the hands of the Jews, and later was honoured in several different places. I have seen it in a city of Asia, in the possession of some Christians who were not Catholics. I have forgotten the name of the town, which is situated in a province near the country of the Three Kings."

I thought that, according to the research it formed during the resurrection but this would imply it was formed shortly before sealing the tomb... or maybe all that were present during the burial were permitted to see the image that will be formed during the resurrection...
Of course It doesn't really matter when or how It was formed, but I found this interesting and wanted to share.
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I had recently wondered why the image in the Turin Shroud shows Jesus with His eyes closed, which would be pre-Resurrectional, one would be inclined to think. On the other hand, the image on the Veil of Manoppello shows Jesus with His eyes wide open, either at the point of Resurrection or just after it, just before He would have removed it from His face. The German Catholic journalist, Paul Badde, has written extensively on this subject, including a book, 'The True Icon' (Ignathius Press) and 'The Holy Veil of Manoppello' (Sophia Press). According to the latter book, Pope Emeritus Benedict, Cardinal Sarah and, perhaps surprisingly, Cardinal Tagle of the Phillipines are devotees of the Veil.

DeGaulle · Apr 22, 2022

Luan Ribeiro said: ↑

considering that when we see the image we recognize the source of our salvation (through the physical features of Jesus) I was in doubt if there would be a risk of idolatry if the image did not correspond to the time of Our Lord.
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I doubt if unintentional mistaken identity would correspond with idolatry. Another, not dissimilar human face would not obviously be a false idol such as Pachamama.

Indeed, that would imply that veneration of all images that did not very closely resemble the true face of Christ could be regarded as idolatrous. It's all down to the intention, I would think.

DeGaulle · Apr 22, 2022

Here I go again, but I thought I would bring up the subject of Our Lady of Guadalupe and her miraculous image on the miraculously preserved tilma. This is another extraordinary example of the intersection of science and faith, with the principle investigating scientist abandoning his atheism to become a Catholic. It seems that the cloak of stars that Our Lady wears on the image has been shown to be a mirror-image of the stars in the sky as they have been shown to be positioned, via computerised back-projection, on the night of the Apparition. Then, there are the extraordinary reflected images, demonstrated by modern technology, in the eyes of Our Lady. Like the title of this thread, it would be nice to know 'how it was done'.

Almost as extraordinary as the images under discussion is their ignoring by the world's media and for such a long time. If a tiny fraction of such verifiable evidence was discovered concerning extraterrestrial life, we'd never hear the end of it.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Guardian is no friend of Truth. Note the opening sentence contrasting the 'world of faith' with the 'world of rational thought', whereas anyone who knows the Catholic Faith is aware that it is the most rational body of thought that exists. If one accepts the first principle of an omniscient, omnipotent God, it is only logical that a Resurrection is possible, if it be His will.

Carol55 · Apr 22, 2022

DeGaulle said: ↑

Here I go again, but I thought I would bring up the subject of Our Lady of Guadalupe and her miraculous image on the miraculously preserved tilma. This is another extraordinary example of the intersection of science and faith, with the principle investigating scientist abandoning his atheism to become a Catholic. It seems that the cloak of stars that Our Lady wears on the image has been shown to be a mirror-image of the stars in the sky as they have been shown to be positioned, via computerised back-projection, on the night of the Apparition. Then, there are the extraordinary reflected images, demonstrated by modern technology, in the eyes of Our Lady. Like the title of this thread, it would be nice to know 'how it was done'.

Almost as extraordinary as the images under discussion is their ignoring by the world's media and for such a long time. If a tiny fraction of such verifiable evidence was discovered concerning extraterrestrial life, we'd never hear the end of it.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Guardian is no friend of Truth. Note the opening sentence contrasting the 'world of faith' with the 'world of rational thought', whereas anyone who knows the Catholic Faith is aware that it is the most rational body of thought that exists. If one accepts the first principle of an omniscient, omnipotent God, it is only logical that a Resurrection is possible, if it be His will.
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DeGaulle, I think that I read the following on the forum. It speaks for itself, a great story related to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Hillary Clinton leaves flowers for Our Lady of Guadalupe, asks ‘Who painted it?’
Mexico City, Mexico, Mar 27, 2009 / 14:59 pm
...
After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked "who painted it?" to which Msgr. Monroy responded "God!"
...
{Please read the full article here https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...or-our-lady-of-guadalupe-asks-who-painted-it]

***

I posted the following on the forum recently about the Shroud of Turin.

Muzhik · Apr 23, 2022

DeGaulle said: ↑

I had recently wondered why the image in the Turin Shroud shows Jesus with His eyes closed, ...
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Recent examination of photos of the Shroud show that the eyes appear to have coins laid on them. At the time, bodies would have had coins or shards of pottery covering them.

DeGaulle · Apr 23, 2022

The Veil of Manoppello strikingly shows Jesus with His eyes open and with a swollen jaw from where He had been struck by one of the Romans. Needless to say, how this image became transposed upon this unthinkably delicate fabric cannot be explained by science.

Indy · Apr 23, 2022

BrianK said: ↑

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/17/the-1m-challenge-if-the-turin-shroud-is-a-forgery-show-how-it-was-done

The $1m challenge: ‘If the Turin Shroud is a forgery, show how it was done’
Expert on revered relic calls on British Museum to back up the results of its disputed carbon dating tests
Joanna Moorhead

It was one of the most eagerly awaited scientific announcements of all time, and it pitted the world of faith against the world of rational thought, under the glare of the media. So when cutting-edge carbon-14 tests found that the Shroud of Turin was a forgery, it seemed like the final chapter for a relic that had been revered for centuries as the cloth in which Christ’s body had been wrapped when he supposedly rose from the dead at the first Easter almost 2,000 years ago.

But one man – David Rolfe, a film-maker whose documentary The Silent Witness had brought the shroud into the public eye in modern times, and who had converted to Christianity as a result of his research – wasn’t prepared to give up on it. He was convinced the carbon dating, carried out in 1988 under the direction of the British Museum and Oxford University, had been flawed. And now he claims he has the evidence to prove it. This week sees the release of a new film,Who Can He Be?, in which Rolfe argues that, far from the shroud being a definite dud, new discoveries in the past few years have again opened the question of its authenticity.

So convinced is Rolfe that he’s issuing a challenge worth $1m to the British Museum. “If … they believe the shroud is a medieval forgery, I call on them to repeat the exercise, and create something similar today,” he says. “Because from all the evidence I’ve seen, if this is a forgery it’s the most ingenious forgery in history – and of course it dates back almost 2,000 years, to a time of far less sophisticated forgery techniques.

“They said it was knocked up by a medieval conman, and I say: well, if he could do it, you must be able to do it as well. And if you can, there’s a $1m donation for your funds.”

According to the gospel accounts, it was when they discovered Christ’s burial cloth on the floor of his tomb that his followers first believed he had risen from the dead. Across the centuries, the shroud has been venerated as that very piece of fabric.

Rolfe became aware of it about 45 years ago, after he put out a request for ideas for documentaries, and the writer Ian Wilson, who had investigated the shroud – by then being kept at Turin Cathedral – got in touch. Rolfe was not a believer, but he found the history of the shroud fascinating. The documentary he went on to make won a Bafta in 1978, and brought the relic to international attention.

“My programme at no point said it was authentic, but it did pose questions, such as how did the image of the crucified man get on to the cloth, and did its provenance fit with the timeline of Christ,” says Rolfe.

The most powerful moment for him came when he took photographs of the four-metre-long shroud for the first time, and saw that the image of the dead man’s face was much more pronounced in the negatives. “It was almost as though it had been created for the photographic age,” says Rolfe.

In the mid-1980s the Vatican, the owner of the shroud, agreed in principle that it could be dated using the latest technology, and entrusted the British Museum with the task. A few years later, the verdict made headlines around the world: the cloth dated from the 13th or 14th century, and could not possibly be authentic. It seemed the relic had had its day.

Pope Francis with the shroud in 2015. Photograph: Alberto Pizzoli/AFP/Getty Images
But Rolfe, who is now in his early 70s, was determined to debunk the debunking. “Five [testing] protocols were agreed on, but they were all abandoned,” he says. In the glare of world publicity, the tests became a political hot potato for the British Museum. The sample used for the tests, Rolfe argues in his new film, was too small and taken from a corner where the shroud was likely to have been repaired over the centuries.

Many would argue that, even if the shroud could be proved to be the burial cloth of the man named Jesus who was crucified 2,000 years ago, that doesn’t amount to proof of his resurrection, the central tenet of Christian belief. “The carbon dating could show it was definitely from the time of Christ, but it’s still a stretch to go from that to seeing it as proof that he rose from the dead,” says Richy Thompson of Humanists UK. “Some people believe that, yes, Jesus was a real person, and we know crucifixion was a thing in those times, and Pontius Pilate is a well-documented historical figure.

“What many non-religious people would say is, where is the evidence? Because if you’re going to make extraordinary claims, you need strong evidence to back it up. And the fact that people believe [in the resurrection] is not in itself evidence that it actually happened.”

Rolfe is unperturbed: he says the image on the cloth seems to have come from a massive burst of radiation, emitted in a fraction of a second.

When it comes to the carbon dating, he’s certainly not alone in his scepticism. Barrie M Schwortz, a photographer who documented the shroud in 1978, says “murky” would be a good word to describe the events of 1988.

“Today there are at least six peer-reviewed scientific articles that challenge the results of the carbon dating,” he says. In his view, the players involved were in a hurry to get the job done, because they wanted to get carbon dating on the map. “Those tests made it a household name, and today it’s used widely in archaeology,” he says. “I’m Jewish, so I don’t have a horse in this race, but I’ve come to believe it’s the authentic burial cloth because I’ve looked at the science.”

The British Museum is less willing to get involved this time around. “Any current questions about the shroud would be best put to those who currently care for it in the royal chapel of the cathedral of Turin,” a spokesperson said.

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Sent from my iPhone
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I was recently in the London natural history museum and I was amazed at the vast amount of money invested into ruling out God and his creation. Then at the end of the museum trip I saw a sign of the museums main sponsors, the Rothschild family. I assume the British museum is not much different.

DeGaulle · Apr 24, 2022

Indy said: ↑

I was recently in the London natural history museum and I was amazed at the vast amount of money invested into ruling out God and his creation. Then at the end of the museum trip I saw a sign of the museums main sponsors, the Rothschild family. I assume the British museum is not much different.
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https://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/2014/12/tolkien-was-more-creative-lewis-was.html

Presumably, the people who organise these museums have a very high opinion of their intellects and possibly a very low one of those who disagree with them.

The link above is to an article I read this morning, discussing the comparable IQ's of two of the last century's more notable Christians. I find it encouraging that two men of such awesome intellect felt compelled to believe. Even more emphatically, Lewis himself was in awe of the intelligence of Elizabeth Anscombe, a contemporaneous Catholic philosopher. Thank God for their witness.

Note: the writer of the article is Bruce Charlton. He's a Mormon, but his moral views are eminently orthodox and his own intellect is quite impressive and utterly hostile to liberalism and wokeness of all kinds.

Immaculata · Apr 24, 2022

When I first heard that the "science" of "carbon dating" disproved the authenticity of the Shroud of Turn, I did not stop believing in the Shroud, I stopped believing in carbon dating.

I just recently read in a book called - Sacred Blood, Sacred Image - that carbon dating has never been held as a credible science amongst scientists and that carbon dating was almost unheard of within the general public and unspoken of within the media until they seen it as an opportunity to use it to attack the Christian faith. I'm guessing they held up carbon dating as science in a similar way to how they held up evolution as science

HeavenlyHosts · Apr 24, 2022

Immaculata said: ↑

When I first heard that the "science" of "carbon dating" disproved the authenticity of the Shroud of Turn, I did not stop believing in the Shroud, I stopped believing in carbon dating.

I just recently read in a book called - Sacred Blood, Sacred Image - that carbon dating has never been held as a credible science amongst scientists and that carbon dating was almost unheard of within the general public and unspoken of within the media until they seen it as an opportunity to use it to attack the Christian faith. I'm guessing they held up carbon dating as science in a similar way to how they held up evolution as science
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Exactly.

miker · Apr 27, 2022

Not sure if this was posted already or in another thread. Not that I needed this to believe , but perhaps will help those that were not convinced….

https://aleteia.org/2022/04/22/new-technology-suggests-shroud-of-turin-is-2000-years-old/

KyleHancock · Apr 28, 2022

Immaculata said: ↑

When I first heard that the "science" of "carbon dating" disproved the authenticity of the Shroud of Turn, I did not stop believing in the Shroud, I stopped believing in carbon dating.

I just recently read in a book called - Sacred Blood, Sacred Image - that carbon dating has never been held as a credible science amongst scientists and that carbon dating was almost unheard of within the general public and unspoken of within the media until they seen it as an opportunity to use it to attack the Christian faith. I'm guessing they held up carbon dating as science in a similar way to how they held up evolution as science
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I attended a university lecture on the Shroud. It was presented by a non-Catholic, but he is still a believer in the Shroud's authenticity. The issue is not as much with Carbon Dating per se but they tested from a corner that was likely a patch and the area where it was handled... Also a later freedom of information request showed some issues with the original carbon dating testing.

In the lecture, the presenter showed pretty convincing evidence of the shroud existing before the middle ages... He didn't have to prove it was from the time of Christ, but he could conclusively show that the shroud in Turin Italy is much older than the carbon dating using writings and paintings of the shroud throughout history.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/30/shroud-turin-display/2038295/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm

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Challenge: ‘If the Turin Shroud is a forgery, show how it was done’

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