You said “how can we believe that such wolves still retain the charism to to rule on matters of faith.”
I never doubted that you trust in Jesus or His promise to the Church. Neither do I think you are leaning towards sede vacantism. All I'm saying is that bad or lukewarm leaders can be a chastisement from God. I wouldn't dare claim to know the mind of God but I believe that these confusing times could be a test of that trust and our obedience to lawful authority. Every one of those Bishops will have to answer to God. It's God and not us who has authority over them. They will answer for every soul led astray, every sacrilegious Communion authorised by them, every baby aborted through policies given tacit approval by them, every act of adultery or sodomy committed with their tacit or active consent, and every soul driven out of the Church by their hypocrisy and bad teaching. The other Bishops will also be held to account for their failure to correct their brothers, remaining silent as evil thrived. God will deal with them in His own time. He'll deal with us too should we reject their authority over us and should we fail to pray for them. If the worst Bishop in the world can administer valid Sacraments, he can determine whether or not a person is receiving messages from Heaven. I know that a bad Bishop could rule against a genuine prophecy. God knows it too. The difference between God and us is that God knows with certainty before, during and after the fact whereas we have no authority to make such a determination and must rely on the authority (Bishop) placed over us by an act of God's will, be it His active or permissive will. Anyway, public revelation already contains all the guidance we need to work out our own salvation. We know what is required of us irrespective of any private revelation. If we stick to that we will be saved no matter who does or doesn't get locutions or apparitions and irrespective of how many Bishops are perverts, heretics or apostates. We know it because that's what God has consistently taught through His Church. Our duty is to love God, love our neighbour, live the beatitudes, repent of our sins, forgive our trespassers and pray for our enemies. The list doesn't include taking upon ourselves the authority vested in God's anointed. We need to fasten our seatbelts because this is likely to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. It may not improve in our lifetime. Evil doers sometimes react to a guilty conscience by projecting their anger onto those whose very presence reminds them of their evil - hence good priests being silenced and Cafeteria Catholics leaning on those Bishops to take out the good priests. I've seen a mild version of that kind of projection on this forum - not because people actively participated in evil but because they preferred to bury their heads in the sand, and accusing others of heresy, disobedience, nastiness or divisiveness probably made them feel better about their own choices.
You spoke truth here, Dolours. Very well said. The list doesn't include taking upon ourselves the authority vested in God's anointed. That's a brilliant post.
An old man used to say (whenever I’d grouse) “hit them with a prayer”. I’ve never forgotten the wisdom in that. He has since passed on. We need to keep hitting the hierarchy with a prayer
It's a lot easier to post about the faith than to live it. I wish I were half the Catholic I know SgC to be. Just as well I'm not a Bishop. John McCain arranged to have "I did it my way" sung at his funeral. My funeral anthem could be the same song with "I'm sorry" starting every line. I was at a funeral once where the recessional hymn was "Simply the best". Unlike in McCain's case, that song was chosen by the relatives. I like that old man's advice. The Novena of Grace is in early March. I'm hoping to do it for the Jesuits. If the lockdown is lifted by then I might do it in the Jesuit Church although 9 days listening to social justice homilies might be more than I can manage.
I have not thought about the Novena of Grace in a long time. When I was young, our pastor used to have a huge novena crowd and nightly Mass. I went there and prayed that Novena and I know for a fact that it is answered. St Francis Xavier helped that pastor begin our parish. So much holiness, so many graces. So powerful. I think it starts March 4.
This is a projection on your part. Nowhere did I say that the ‘sede’ is vacant. I do NOT believe that the seat of St Peter is vacant. +
Thank you Dolours. Again, I thank you for the confidence. I pray that I can live up to that statement. Please God Help me and Mother Mary guide me. +
It says what it says. No offense. But it’s implied. Thank you for your clarification. If you do not believe that the Seat of Peter is vacant, then it follows that you believe in Apostolic succession. Do you?
I meant every word of it. I was born into the faith. The Holy Spirit led you into the Church. What we take for granted, you had to struggle and come to terms with and the Holy Spirit was with you every step of the way. These are troubled times for the Church. We must accept that if the Bishops say that Francis is the Pope, then he is Pope and is due the respect that goes with the office he holds. If he has come to the papacy by dishonest means, God will hold him to account for that. If he does serious harm to the faith through acts or omissions, the Church will eventually set the record straight as it did with Honorius 1. All we have to do is hold fast to what has been believed always and by everyone. Leave the hierarchy for God to sort out. St. Cyprian of Carthage said some time in the middle of the third century (he died around the year 258) "He can no longer have God for his father, who has not the Church for his mother". See paragraph 6 in his treatise: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm While that statement is often quoted by people to silence anyone who is troubled by Pope Francis, it wouldn't do our hierarchy any harm to remember it when they talk about all humans being children of God (they tend to slyly use the word children rather than sons and daughters although I don't know who they think they're fooling). There's a few other paragraphs which also should give them pause for thought, especially a Pope who was very quick to say that he could be the one to divide the Church and who has no problem giving Communion to Protestants. His latest statement about Vatican 11 suggests that he's aiming at Archbishop Vigano. While Archbishop Vigano was foolish to attack Vatican 11, there's a whole lot of people close to the Pope, not excluding Pope Francis himself, who need reminding that the Council of Trent is equally if not more binding than Vatican 11.
The Bishop has authority over such a person receiving private messages. Remember the example of the bishop during the apparitions of Garabandal. He informed the seers they were not to enter the Church for an apparition or during an apparition. While seeing Our Lady they would approach the door of the Church to be close to the Blessed Sacrament, but Our Lady would not instruct the children to go in, but to pray outside. Thus, both Mary and the seers submitted to the Bishop's restrictions.
We must accept that if the Bishops say that Francis is the Pope, then he is Pope and is due the respect that goes with the office he holds. If he has come to the papacy by dishonest means, God will hold him to account for that. If he does serious harm to the faith through acts or omissions, the Church will eventually set the record straight as it did with Honorius 1. All we have to do is hold fast to what has been believed always and by everyone. Leave the hierarchy for God to sort out. Truth! And rejoice that we are Catholics, even in a time such as this. God chose us to be Catholics. What a great grace.
As a deacon, I'm a member of the hierarchy. The truth is God's been sorting me out since way before my ordination! Signed, He ain't done with me yet!
He makes the crooked way straight. He has done that for me, and I praise Him for it. And He continues to do that.
I wonder how many of our hierarchy spare a thought for the time when the sorting will consist of dividing the wheat from the chaff. Too many of them show by their weasel words that they don't believe there will by any sorting at all - the Hell is empty brigade. Or the crowd who think they are super clever by twisting themselves inside out to come up with weak explanations for how what appears to be a rupture is really a continuation - that the quacking, waddling, brown bird is really a swan because the person calling it a swan says so. Of those to whom much has been given, much will be expected That applies most to the members of our hierarchy because there's sufficient grace available for all of you to carry out your ministry to its fullest. It also applies to those of us raised in the faith. Every one of us is called to give reason for the hope within us. We need to be able to explain to converts why we stick with a Pope or Bishops when their actions appear to contradict what they and we profess to believe or when the Church that claims to bear the four marks that makes it the true Church founded by Christ permits a situation where something is deemed to to be sinful or not based on geographical location. Dismissing their concerns isn't good enough. Passing it off as fake news is the weakest dismissal of all. The most despicable dismissal is the snide reference to their being Johnny come lately Catholics which in many cases is becoming a fall-back position for Catholic intelligentsia. The same "intelligentsia" conveniently ignore the paragraph in the Catechism about the faithful being entitled to clear teaching from our shepherds. That's not aimed at you, Mario, but all this focus on watering down the faith to please the peripheries is an insult to those who read and prayed their way into the Church, believing that, since it claims to hold the fullness of revealed truth, it would actually act as though that were true. I need to take a break from the forum. Note to SgC: Hang in there. Trust that if God wants us to hear some message, he will ensure that we get it through His Church.
Dolours, The foundation for our spiritual life is laid through our Baptism when the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity are infused in our souls; It is a supernatural work of God: Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. All of the baptized have gained access to this marvelous grace, whether pauper or prince of the Church. Yet, it is not enough to assent with the head, for Paul writes later in Romans: 10:9 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Most Catholics have been baptized into Christ and His Church when babes; each of us therefore have access to everything Christ offers through His Bride. And as you say above, members of the hierarchy have grace available to carry out our ministry to the fullest. But unless our hearts as well as our intellects are engaged together, unless we have fallen in love with the Living God, the fullness of ministry will never take place. It is the sophistries of freemasonry by which both young and old clerics are enticed down the broad and wide road. It is ultimately the love of Jesus Christ which steers the heart to take the narrow way. This is what our prayers must truly focus on, for without love burning in the hearts of our clergy, the evil one can easily manipulate their sensibilities. Remember, the great orthodox minds in ages past were first and foremost in love with God! Consider the two following quotes from Augustine's Confessions (the numbers following are pages). I believe the first is a prerequisite for the second: “You called and cried out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness. You were fragrant, and I drew in my breath and now pant after you. I tasted you, and I feel but hunger and thirst for you. You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain the peace which is yours.” (201) “I am more delighted to have declared the truth than to be praised for it. If I were given the choice of being universally admired, though mad or wholly wrong, or of being universally abused, though steadfast and utterly certain in possessing the truth, I see which I should choose.” (215) Lord, may Your burning Love enrapture the hearts and minds of our Clergy!
This apostasy has to happen. It's been foretold. All the crying and whining we do won't make it go away. But God is in control.
