AED, I believe Don was inferring that he agrees, but that most won't. O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
There is one thing that occurs to me about these poor hermits and that is the words of Jesus, 'Be you are innocent as doves and subtle as the serpent'. Its wise not to paint a target on your back so you don't get zapped. In the early Church being a Martyr was such a prized thing that some Believers actually went out and sought death by , for instance attacking Pagan Temples and going before the Magistrates and Declaring themselves to be Christians. The Early Fathers frowned on this kind of thing. If we're going get zapped we're going to get zapped, but I think we should be careful we're not putting ourselves on offer. The Early Church was so different from now in so very many ways. Apparently they took penance in confession very,very seriously indeed. So if you confessed a sin you might get a penance of taking bread and water for a year or more. Just imagine if a priest gave you that now, you would fall over in shock. Also they took fasting for feast days very seriously, they really put the boat out in the days running up to times like Christmas. We have a lot to learn from the medieval and Early Church. But on the other hand its a case of horses for courses. For the very first time we are living in a Post Christian World which imposes its own huge Crosses and Penances and dangers. As Fr Malachi Martin commented , 'Grace is draining from the World'. The Light is fading fast and darkness is everywhere. I was contacted by a devout Catholic lady over Christmas who just learned that several of her sons are into an active homosexual lifestyle. She never even guessed. What to say such a poor woman? She is totally stricken. No Happy Christmas for her. The Modern World. Sigh.
Padraig, I believe that you have given some good advice here but I can't help but wonder if you were one those hermits you would have done the exact same thing that they did. Do you think so or what do you think you would do at this point if you were one them? It will be 4 years this Spring since Pope Francis issued Amoris Laetitia and it is over 3 years since the pope was presented with the Dubia. So much time has past. I believe that men of the cloth like these hermits and Father Goring; Archbishop Vigano; Cardinals Burke, Brandmueller, Mueller and Zen; and Bishops Strickland and Schneider who are speaking out against the confusion and trying to aid the flock with sound teaching of the Faith - the Truth are doing the right thing. I am sure that I have forgotten some who are also doing this. I think that you believe that they are doing the right thing too, correct? But I believe that you are correct that there has a price to pay for some who have spoken out. Vigano is in hiding, Burke has practically been put out to pasture and Goring was told to cool it off, in so many words. I sometime wonder what they must say to each other in private about what is occurring now. Imagine if they were all in a room together. Mario, I think that you are probably correct. I think I misread the word copious when I read Don's post.
Yes, Carol. Your point is well taken! But these hermits left the Church over these issues. Voluntarily. The clerics you mention above are remaining in Christ’s Church and trying to aid the flock. Imho, big difference. We all have free will and will be held accountable, as Jesus said, for every jot and tittle. Imho, the hermits cut off their nose to spite their face. It’s too bad.
HH, I had to read their full statement more carefully today. I admit to only skimming it yesterday, that is partially why I asked Don the question that I did. From the original article posted on this thread it is not clear that they left the Church. I was dealing with a bad headache for yesterday and reading was somewhat difficult for me especially with the colors used on that site. So far, my headache is gone today. I think that I see what you are referring to, "We who are watchmen for the Church, who must speak from the watch tower of Truth, have no option but to withdraw our obedience from Pope Francis and sever communion with the Holy See." Ugh! Thanks HeavenlyHosts.
Yes, very sadly they went too far. Now, I understand what Padraig was referring to. We must stay in the Church, we can and should speak up in regard to the confusion etc. but we absolutely must stay in the Church. Thanks again!
You're welcome. We absolutely must stay in the Church, and then we will be with Jesus and each other in the Mystical Body of Christ throughout what remains of this chastisement.
What exactly does the term ‘sever communion with the Holy See’ mean? Does it mean severing communion with the individual who occupies the chair of Peter? or does it definitely include cutting ties with the entire Church? +
It means cutting ties with the entire Church, becoming a dead cell in the Mystical Body of Christ, removing ourselves from all of the graces and benefits. We mustn't overthink this. Pope Francis is not the Church. He is the shepherd. We respect the Petrine Office. We do not have to accept or obey anything contrary to Faith, morals or charity. We need to stay firm in the Barque in this terrible storm. This group of excommunicated hermits will be gone from our immediate memories as soon as the next crisis event occurs. We continue on, receiving the sacraments and reciting our rosaries, and staying within the Church. The message of Advent was a dual one: prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus, but also prepare for the unknown day and hour when we will be called home to meet Jesus and our particular judgment. I want to have as many Masses, graces and Communions and Confessions as possible by then. Once again, we cannot control the Pope. We can, however, control how we live as Catholics.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964 CHAPTER I THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH 22. Just as in the Gospel, the Lord so disposing, St. Peter and the other apostles constitute one apostolic college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are joined together. Indeed, the very ancient practice whereby bishops duly established in all parts of the world were in communion with one another and with the Bishop of Rome in a bond of unity, charity and peace,(23*) and also the councils assembled together,(24*) in which more profound issues were settled in common, (25*) the opinion of the many having been prudently considered,(26*) both of these factors are already an indication of the collegiate character and aspect of the Episcopal order; and the ecumenical councils held in the course of centuries are also manifest proof of that same character. And it is intimated also in the practice, introduced in ancient times, of summoning several bishops to take part in the elevation of the newly elected to the ministry of the high priesthood. Hence, one is constituted a member of the Episcopal body in virtue of sacramental consecration and hierarchical communion with the head and members of the body. But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*) This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them.(29*) This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.
Code of Canon Law CHAPTER IV. THE ROMAN CURIA Can. 360 The Supreme Pontiff usually conducts the affairs of the universal Church through the Roman Curia which performs its function in his name and by his authority for the good and service of the churches. The Roman Curia consists of the Secretariat of State or the Papal Secretariat, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, congregations, tribunals, and other institutes; the constitution and competence of all these are defined in special law.
You know I'd have a lot of sympathy for people who make genuine mistakes at the present time. I'd have loads and loads less sympathy for people like Caridnals and Bishops at the moment who are freely chosing to be Apostate Heretics because they are living totally immoral and corrupt lives.
I agree. Sadly the hermits crossed the line. In leaving the Church, they gave up the ship. With all that is going on around us it is a very slippery slope indeed to keep emotions in check, and stay grounded in our faith. I was imagining what I would have done at that Vatican concert where everyone was asked to crosss their hands over their chests to honor Mother Earth. I believe I would have made the sign of the cross instead. You can say plenty without uttering a word. I wonder how many clergy crossed their hands because they were afraid not to. There are moments when I feel as though the faithful are a heartbeat away from going into hiding. Scary times.
The Church used to have an official position whereby a canon lawyer was appointed as Devil's advocate or advocatus diaboli for the canonisation process of a saint, to see if there were any biases etc. in the evidence favoring canonisation. Seems like we need a few good Devil's advocates for certain issues in the Church today, and perhaps even in other areas such as politics to question some of the things going on.
