That's it! If we are pointing fingers we need only look in the mirror. The leaders we got are the ones we deserve. They correspond to the response we collectively gave to the warnings at Fatima. How long are the confessional lines on First Saturday? Or any Saturday? Is the average Catholic making any kind of reparations? Praying the Rosary? It is a wonder the Chastisement hasn't happened already. It is only due to God's great Mercy. For the sake of those who can be saved He has held His Hand.
I think that what you and others are missing is that Vatican 11 wasn't the cause of the rot. It was just another symptom. Vatican 11 didn't cause the exit of priests and nuns. It merely opened the door for people who already wanted out. And there was liturgical abuse pre-Vatican 11. The difference between then and now is that if a priest omits or changes essential parts of the liturgy there's a good chance the pew sitters will recognize it. Pre-Vatican 11, 15 minute Masses were common enough, making it as likely as not that "Fr. Flash" either raced through the liturgy or omitted chunks of it but the vast majority of pew sitters wouldn't have known. After Vatican 11, very little attempt was made to discipline Bishops or theologians who openly dissented from Church teaching. Bishops and theologians in Catholic educational institutions should have been told to shape up or ship out. They weren't, despite being a minority at that time. And faithful Bishops should have put pressure on successive Popes to ensure that nobody teaching a different Gospel could claim to be a Catholic in Communion with the Pope. Right up to the day Pope Francis was elected, they all settled for a superficial unity. Cardinals Martini and Kasper should have been demoted if not excommunicated long before there was any St. Gallen mafia. The half hearted attempt to get Cardinal Kasper to stop pushing his agenda wasn't nearly enough. Pope John Paul made some attempt to sort out the Jesuits but backed off for some unknown reasons. It appears that Cardinal Martini had a hand in that - Pope Francis gives him credit for helping the Jesuits get over their difficulties. Latin is not the solution. Eastern rite Catholics managed to celebrate the Divine Liturgy in different languages without producing Bishops who believe they know more about marriage than Jesus. Back then and now, the greatest harm done to the Church doesn't come from extreme liberals or extreme traditionalists. It comes from the lukewarm who see the danger and choose to keep their heads down and mouths shut. No wonder Jesus said He would spit them out of his mouth.
But those other venerable rites maintained their ancient liturgies with the languages and ceremonies used. They did not radically alter their Liturgies to "Modernize" them. They clung to approved tradition. We are the "Latin" Rite and many priests can't even speak Latin anymore much less perform a Mass using it. I would disagree slightly here. The greatest danger comes from the extreme liberals leading the lukewarm out of Catholicism. Left to themselves the lukewarm center would just mill about going nowhere.
Reading this article on the Catholic Culture website, it seems to me that the Church has been fairly flexible with regard to liturgical language from the earliest times. That seems to have been the case in both the East and West. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2786 When it comes to the tradition of the universal Church, I think there's a much stronger case for ad orientum than a universal liturgical language. This is worth reading: https://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zreorient.htm I read this quote from St. Augustine on a TLM website: "When we rise to pray, we turn East, where heaven begins. And we do this not because God is there, as if He had moved away from the other directions on earth..., but rather to help us remember to turn our mind towards a higher order, that is, to God." I don't think there would be much argument against the claim that there are have been problems in our seminaries for a very long time. Considering how many of our priests appear to lack a basic understanding of the Commandments, it's hardly surprising that they can't manage to say Mass in Latin. They wouldn't need to be fluent in Latin to learn the liturgy of the Eucharist. In my (I'm ashamed to say not so humble) opinion, it's ridiculous having the liturgy of the word in a language nobody but the priest understands. If our lukewarm hierarchy had half the zeal of their liberal brothers, the only people leaving the Church would be liberal clergy and their cafeteria clientele.
I agree - at my old no parish there was confession for 45 minutes on Saturday and that was it. Not many people went, confession was never preached. However, at my now FSSP parish, there is confession before, during, and after ALL 5 Sunday Masses in addition to before and after each of the 2 daily Masses with long lines the entire time - particularly Sunday's and especially 1st Saturday's. Confession is constantly preached, and every first weekend it's mentioned from the pulpit to make our 1st Fridays and Saturdays. I'm just saying - it's the traditional arm of the Church that is pushing the message and heart of Fatima. Speaking of, happy feast of the Miracle of the Sun! It's supposed to thunderstorm this morning in my area, and our parish is having a Fatima procession following Mass this morning (rain like that day, interesting)
I just started hip-cupping. Fortunately I didn't have to go all the way through the alphabet before I stopped! Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
I am all too well acquainted with the abuses within the NO masses said. I have spent the past 30 years writing several letters to bishops, papal nuncio's and even the Vatican. When I have people ask me, why I don't go to another Church, I tell them, because this is my Church and if I am not here to fight for her, who will? I reject the many many abuses and bad homilies that I have endured for many decades, but I can say this, that my parish would be in a whole lot worse state, if they knew someone was not in the pew listening and willing to pass the bad homilies or bad actions at my Church on to the bishops office. And yes, when my bishops office itself was bad, I wrote the papal nuncio and even the Vatican to express the abuses within my diocese and I got responses back from them, as well as my pastors and bishop, which did give pause to the abusers. Bottom line, I don't live near a place where other viable options are there. I know that the mass I go to is valid and that Jesus is present there, just the same as he is in the most reverent of masses. He provides me the grace through it all to fight the good fight and do what I can to keep my church from going to far gone. The hardest part is in raising 11 children where they see the indifference in worship and it surely made for less than desired experience for them going forward. But they were taught the rosary and taught the truths of the faith, nonetheless. God will bless those families who have fought the good fight in the end.
Thank you for fighting the good fight Fatima. Honestly if it were my Church I wouldn't feel the need to stay in the quagmire. For my spiritual health I would get out, but I understand what you are saying from your point of view. It is your church and you want to fight for it. We are all called to do different things and perhaps this is one of the duties you have been given. Kudos!
Yes, for me it is pretty simple. I don't understand everything that is going on. I am not a canonist or a theologian. I could not make a proper case for exactly what was went wrong during Vatican II, whether it was a wording problem with the documents, the "spirit" or whatever. I couldn't dissect the Novus Ordo from the Latin Mass and point to all of the different problems. All I know is that the good food and water is coming mostly from the traditional part of the Church at this time. It is hardly to be found elsewhere. Yes there is a trickle coming from other priests, but there is a roaring spigot coming from traditional priests. There is a reason that 95% of the good Catholic homilies and talks people post here are from traditional priests. For the most part they are the only ones preaching the truth. They preach about Fatima, Our Lady's apparitions, the Chastisement, The Rosary, the First Saturdays, prayer, reparation, penance. They are living the message. When is the last time anyone went to the average Catholic church on the corner and heard a sermon on the Chastisement, Fatima, the Rosary? 20 years ago? Ever? It is true that the traditional sector is not 100% right about everything, but if I had to put a number on it I'd say they are up at about 90%. That is a heck of a lot better than the 0% that the Modernists have right or the 25-50% (and that may be generous) right middle of the road priests can offer. I go where the fruit is good.
Thanks Dolours I will take a look at these links. I always like to learn and keep an open mind. I am leery though about people who write articles to uphold changes in the Church. For example I have read many articles citing that Communion in the hand was an early practice when that is a disingenuous twisting of the truth. Another important thing to remember is that just because the Church used to do things in the first or second century doesn't necessarily mean it is okay today. That is a false narrative that many do not realize. The Church is like a growing thing with it's understanding of Scripture and Tradition. At one time it was a seed and now it is a mighty tree. Just because it was a seed at one point doesn't mean we should desire to go back to being seed-like. A university student shouldn't say well once I was in kindergarten so perhaps I should return. The Liturgy has had 2,000 years of organic and slow growth. To jettison all of that in one shot and create something entirely new was something unheard of before Pope Paul VI made up the new Mass.
Yes, people tend to cherrypick points from history to support their point of view. I do think, however, that the biggest argument against Latin is that Greek was the most widely used liturgical language in Rome until Latin replaced Greek as the common language of the people. According to the article I linked to, that happened gradually over the course of a couple of centuries. The Vatican 11 Fathers might have intended the change from Latin to the vernacular to happen over an extended period similar to the switch from Greek to Latin. There certainly appears to have been nothing in the documents to justify the almost overnight replacement which actually happened. The case for jettisoning ad orientem fits better your analogy of returning to kindergarten. That the Apostles made do with whatever facilities they had during the time of persecution doesn't change the fact that Mass was celebrated ad orientum since very early in the history of the Church. Focusing only on the Last Supper to justify the change can be seen as a step towards airbrushing Calvary out of the Mass. If we didn't already have Protestantism as an example of where that leads to, we have enough polls showing the decline in Catholic belief in the Real Presence to tell us that switching our focus from God to man is a path to destruction.
The family unit is the most crucial instrument in the formation of youth. I have seen solid catechetical programs introduced on Sundays to school age children, but unless preferably both parents are forming their children, praying with them, and ingraining a love for the sacraments, it is very difficult. Such families need to seek out like-minded families to reinforce the domestic Church. Children need to see reverence and piety at Holy Mass along with strong preaching, but it is essential for them to see it in the home, too! This is not my plan, that is God's plan. In difficult situations of broken homes, or weak parental commitment to the Faith, God still is there providing grace; but only if the domestic family model is embraced will the Church recover Her vibrancy and vigor! Strong families must reach out to weaker ones as one would look for mission territories. Such clustering will be crucial in the midst of this Storm! Pray and keep the Faith! Viva Cristo Rey! Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
I want to make one point very clear, however. I did not convert my students. The most we can do is to pray to be God’s instruments. To be an instrument we must strive to live the Gospel every day and in every circumstance. Only God’s grace can give us the desire and ability to do that. It is one of the fears I have about traditional Catholics. Some flirt with fanaticism. A fanatic is one who considers truth to be his personal possession instead of God’s gift. We are servants of the truth, and it is as servants that we seek to share it. I am very concerned that there are “fanatical” Catholics who use the Faith and the truth it proclaims as an intellectual toy. An authentic appropriation of the truth always leads to a striving for holiness. The Faith, in this present crisis, is not an intellectual chess game. For anyone not striving for holiness, that’s all it will ever be. Such people do more harm to the Faith, particularly if they are proponents of the traditional Mass. these are the words of Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand in her interview with TLM magazine, posted in False Church thread in September TLM: So you see the only scenario for a solution to the present crisis as the renewal of a striving for sanctity? AVH:: We should not forget that we are fighting not only against flesh and blood, but against “powers and principalities.” This should elicit sufficient dread in us to make us strive more than ever for holiness, and to pray fervently that the Holy Bride of Christ, who is right now at Calvary, comes out of this fearful crisis more radiant than ever. The Catholic answer is always the same: absolute fidelity to the holy teaching of the Church, faithfulness to the Holy See, frequent reception of the sacraments, the Rosary, daily spiritual reading, and gratitude that we have been given the fullness of God’s revelation: “Gaudete, iterum dico vobis, Gaudete.”
But grave as the situation is, no committed Catholic can forget that Christ has promised that He will remain with His Church to the very end of the world. We should meditate on the scene related in the Gospel when the apostles’ boat was battered by a fierce storm. Christ was sleeping! His terrified followers woke Him up: He said one word, and there was a great calm. “O ye of little faith!”More words from AVH from the same interview
Being in the trad fold I have to say that what you say here is sadly true. There are some fanatics in our midst. Most often this is found in some fringe online bloggers or self proclaimed expertswho have found a soap box upon which to climb and spew hatred. You can easily tell who they are because they mostly just spit venom and vitriol and seldom speak about things like spiritual growth. They get an emotional high from calling the Pope names and putting down the upper echelons of the clergy whom they disagree with on some point or other. I want to stress though that this really is not found in traditional priests at all with the exception of some breakaway priests found in groups like the sedevacantists. In fact most traditional priests I know of are exceptionally holy. We must also remember though that there is righteous anger in seeing the subversion of the Church. I feel it myself and have seen it grow here on the forum. I think this is a time when each one of us needs to keep balanced between growing spiritually and upset at what is going on. If we focus too much on what they are doing to the Church and the faithful we run the danger of slipping over into the void of fanaticism ourselves. This is why I strike so hard when we have people show up here spouting sedevacantist nonsense.
