Simple and clear. It echoes a talk by Bishop Sheen I listened to this morning. What would we do without Our Lady. I have grown to love the Rosary so much that I feel terrible if I do not get at least one said a day. I would like to pray all 15 decades but these days that doesn’t always happen. I look at my Rosary as maintenance level prayer. I try to build from there. But a Rosary well said is a wonderful powerful prayer experience meditating on the mysteries. Another favorite prayer is Padre Pio’s Sacred Heart novena. Sadly I often fall short of my prayer plan.
The language of the Publican was humble. Right? It was the Pharisee who went on about being not like other men.
I guess I’ve been blessed by Charismatic Catholics I have known. Prayerful and humble and on fire with a love for Jesus. I’m sorry you have had to deal with those who were not.
I totally believe in this: Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi, = Lex Provendi July 14, 2013 by Father Carota http://www.traditionalcatholicpries...orandi-lex-credendi-lex-vivendi-lex-provendi/ This is a very very important subject. It may be a bit heady and boring to study, but is the crux of the problem all of us traditional catholics have experienced in the church and are trying, with God’s help, to correct. So please be patient and study this well. We need to do go the root of the problem of mass desertion from the church, mass distortion of the catholic teachings, and the immoral way that most catholics are living today. My hypothesis is this: since we have stopped offering the Tridentine mass and the other Tridentine rites ( e.g. Baptism), and began offering the Novus Ordo Mass and rites, (Lex Orandi), that this change in how we pray (Lex Orandi), has caused the great exodus of catholics from the church and the dissension of most catholics with catholic teaching like birth control, same sex marriage, abortion, and divorce (Lex Credendi). This ancient catholic saying “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” means “As we pray so we believe”. I think that the second part “Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi” which means “As we believe so we live”was added on later. The original saying was by Prosper of Aquitaine from the 5th century; “ut legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi”. This means “that the law of praying establishes the law of believing”. How we pray and what we pray will effect what we believe. What we believe will have its effect how we live. I made up the last latin word “Lex Provendi” to say that “the proof is in the pudding” (the law of proof). So to prove if the content of prayer and the way we pray is correct, we will see that our beliefs are correct. If our beliefs are true we will see fruits in how we live everyday. If we are praying wrong we will see bad fruits. So, being a stickler on empirical evidence, I want to empirically show, with statistics, that because we changed our Holy Mass and other catholic rites, that most catholics do not believe in what the catholic church teaches and therefore are not living as catholics. The other empirical statistics are abundant when it comes to catholics falling away or not practicing the catholic faith since the liturgical change to the New Mass and Rites. Empirical statistics on the Catholic Church the United States of America from cara.Georgetown University study 2012. Priests. In 1965, 58,632 in 2012, 38,964. By 2020 over half will be over 70. Ordinations. In 1965, 994 new priests ordained. In 2012, 480 new priests ordained. Parishes. In 1965, 549 parishes were without priests. Today 3,389 parishes with out. Graduate-level Seminarians. In 1965 there were 8,325. In 2012, 3,723. In 1965 there were 600 seminaries. Today 189 seminaries. Women Religious. In 1965 there were 179,954 sisters. In 2012, 54,018. Average age 68. From other sources; Mass attendence. Gallop Pole showed that 1958, 3 in 4 catholics attend Sunday Mass. Now Notre Dame Univ. found that 1 in 4 attend. Annulments. 1968 there were 338. In 2002 there were 50,000. (Kenneth C Jones) Catholic women make up 31% of the U.S. population and account for 31% of abortions. From Alissa J. Rubin “The Catholic Abortion Paradox”. Marriages. I tried googling marriage statistics and only came up with older statistics that show a steep decline in catholic marriages. But as a pastor for 10 years, I witnessed a huge decline in marriages. Most couples today just live together and maybe later on will get married civilly and have a con-validation ceremony in the church. So the verdict is in and it is not good. Malum Lex Orandi, Malum Lex Credendi, Malum Lex Vivendi = Malum Lex Provendi. Bad law of prayer = bad law of belief = bad law of life = bad statistics. If the content of our catholic prayers and liturgies are correct, you will see correct catholic beliefs in the catholic people. If our catholic beliefs are correct we will see catholics living holy lives. I think we all traditional catholic agree that for the good of our beloved catholic church, we need to return to the Mass of all Ages and the other Tridentine Rites and we will see a reverse in the decline of our church and correct beliefs amongst the faithful. And the final result will be happier souls and families. God, Mary, St. Joseph will be happy too. Father Carota The original author of this blog and passed away in July of 2016. RIP Father Carota.
I wish to say something about this. If daily, one assists at mass and receives Holy Communion, prays the rosary, prays to St Michael, frequently goes for confession, keeps the First Fridays and First Saturdays, etc, etc, and is still believed by others to be under attack from dark forces, there is something very wrong. Should a Catholic not have faith in the power of these sacraments and devotions and prayers?
It is good that you focus on the good. But I am trying to point out the errors, in the belief that only by correcting them, can things be put right again in our Church. See my post above about 'Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi.'
Sg, You are doing a lot and I'm glad that you mentioned all of this. I think that you should post about it more. What I was referring to is if we only post about the negative things than we are in fact only spreading the negative news about the Church. Try and be a little more positive in your posts, that is all. The dark forces won't be as happy if you share the good news about the Church too. Take a step back and think about what I am saying. Edited to add: Something beautiful,
Zealous souls can also come under attack. Maybe even more readily than the lukewarm or disinterested. Yes, we can do everything right, sg, but bad or incorrect ideas and conspiracy theories can still distract and mislead us, especially if we're on fire for what is right. Much of the thoughts that go along with such notions lead almost inevitably to Sedevacantism. Because if this or that was invalid, maybe there has been no valid Church, and.... it goes on and on and Truth could split in a million possible directions once you or anyone starts thinking along those lines. There is an extent to which we need to understand, carefully, as best we're able to, the damage done by individuals in places to the beauty and reverence of the Liturgy (clown masses and liturgical dancing = no) and identify a lot of the horrible theology that has grown rampant and mislead souls since Vatican II. But neither does that mean the the NO is invalid, or that Pius XII was the last Pope. We can delve into theory, or live out what is in front of us, sg. I think it is better to live out what is in front of us. Really.
I've been very involved in "activities" in the Church since a very young pre-teenager. It was very important to my dad (who converted to Catholicism at age 18) that I be involved and attend prayer groups, apologetics groups, bible studies, conferences, pro life volunteer work, youth groups, retreats, etc. I suppose because I was very heavily involved in such things from a young age that I've met a LOT of Catholics (considering I'm only 33) in my life and encountered MANY such modernists/liberals who openly display their supposed charisms. Most of the time a conversation would display openness to heresy or even pure defense of it. I have never in my life encountered an orthodox charismatic, and have a very dim view of the movement.
Hi Sg, Below is one of the documents of VaticanII, which I believe is one of the good things that came out of Vatican II. Lumen Gentium Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 21 November 1964. Excerpts from CHAPTER VIII: OUR LADY, from sections 60-65. Mary's Role in the Church Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men originates not in any inner necessity but in the disposition of God. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. It does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but on the contrary fosters it. The predestination of the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God was associated with the incarnation of the divine word: in the designs of divine Providence she was the gracious mother of the divine Redeemer here on earth, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth, and nourished Christ, she presented him to the Father in the temple, shared her Son's sufferings as he died on the cross. Thus, in a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior in restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.[15] By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.[16] This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17] No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer. Mary, type or figure of the Church By reason of the gift and role of her divine motherhood, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with her unique graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united to the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity, and perfect union with Christ.[18] For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother.[19] Through her faith and obedience she gave birth on earth to the very Son of the Father, not through the knowledge of man but by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, in the manner of a new Eve who placed her faith, not in the serpent of old but in God's messenger without waivering in doubt. The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first born among many brethren (Rom. 8:29), that is, the faithful, in whose generation and formation she cooperates with a mother's love. The Church indeed contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity and faithfully fulfilling the Father's will, by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse. Imitating the mother of her Lord, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, she keeps intact faith, firm hope and sincere charity.[20] But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf. Eph. 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse. Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and veneration she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ, who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that through the Church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who join in the Church's apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated. Notes 15. Cfr. Kleutgen, textus reformatus De mysterio Verbi incarnati, cap. IV: Mansi 53, 290. Cfr. S. Andreas Cret.,In nat. Mariae, sermo 4: PG 97, 865 A. - S. Germanus Constantinop., In annunt. Deiparae: PG 98, 321 BC. In dorm. Deiparae, III: col. 361 D.S. Io. Damascenus, In dorm. B. V. Mariae, Hom. 1, 8: PG 96, 712 BC - 713 A. 16. Cfr. Leo XIII, Litt. Encycl. Adiutricem populi, 5 sept. 1895: ASS 15 (1895-96), P. 303. - S. Pius X, Litt. Encycl.Ad diem illum, 2 febr. 1904: Acta, I, p. 154; Denz. 1978 a (3370). - Pius XI, Litt. Encycl. Miserentissimus, 8 maii 1928: AAS 20 (1928) P. 178. Pius XII, Nuntius Radioph., 13 maii 1946: AAS 38 (1946) P. 266. 17. S. Ambrosius, Epist. 63: PL 16, 1218. 18. S. Ambrosius, Expos. Lc. II, 7: PL 15, 1555. 19. Cfr. Ps.-Petrus Dam., Serm. 63: PL 144, 861 AB. - Godefridus a S. Victore. In nat. B. M., Ms. Paris, Mazarine, 1002, fol. 109 r. - Gerhohus Reich., De gloria et honore Filii hominis, 10: PL 194,1105AB. 20. S. Ambrosius, l. c. et Expos. Lc. X, 24-25: PL 15, 1810. - S. Augustinus, In lo. Tr. 13, 12: PL 35, 1499. Cfr. Serm.191, 2, 3: PL 38, 1010; etc. Cfr. etiam Ven. Beda, In Lc. Expos. I, cap. 2: PL 92, 330. - Isaac de Stella, Serm. 51: PL 194, 1863 A. 21. Sub tuum praesidium. 22. Conc. Nicaenum II, anno 787: Mansi 13, 378-379; Denz. 302 (600-601) .conc. Trident., sess. 25: Mansi 33, 171-172. 23. Cfr. Pius XII, Nuntius radioph., 24 oct. 1954: AAS 46 (1954) P. 679. Litt. Encycl. Ad coeli Reginam, 11 oct. 1954: AAS 46 (1954) P. 637. Excerpted from Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen gentium, 21 November 1964 View the complete text of Lumen gentium from the EWTN Online Services ftp site. Electronic text (c) Copyright EWTN 1996. All rights reserved.
I am not enamoured of it as a “movement” in and of itself but there are very devout serious prayerful Catholics that I know that would impress you. They are the real deal.
Below are other documents of VII that are very edifying and instructive especially in regards to Our Lords Real presence in the Most Blessed Eucharist,! which VII defines beautifully in Lumen Gentium........" the Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit of the Christian life." The Eucharist and Vatican II "It is difficult to say something new about the Second Vatican Council. At the same time, we must always refer back to the Council, which is a duty and a challenge for the Church and for the world. We feel the need to speak about the Council in order to interpret it correctly and defend it from tendentious interpretations" -Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 157, 1994. Introduction The contents of this page will hopefully help you to use the Vatican II documents as a means of increasing faith and devotion to the Eucharist in your area. It is true that this council encouraged changes in the liturgy. However, many people have misinterpreted this message and thus have down played the importance of the Eucharist in the Church and in our personal lives. Some members of the Church will claim that this council stated that the Eucharist is merely a symbol, thus denying the Real Presence. On the contrary, almost every Vatican II document speaks of the Real Presence, and implies that we need to increase our devotion to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Application Tips Excerpts from Vatican II Documents on the Eucharist Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) Perhaps the most important document of the Council. This document elaborates on the nature, role, and guidelines of the Church. It boldly states that the "Eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit of the Christian life." (Chapter II: The People of God). The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) This document again emphasizes the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and that we should increase our devotion to it. A powerful statement in this document to counteract some of the liturgical abuses occurring in some parishes is that "no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority" (General Norms #3) Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests (Presbyterorum Ordinis) Reiterates the same message that "The Eucharistic sacrifice is the center and root of the whole life of the priest." (Section: Unity and Harmony of Priests). Decree on Priestly Training (Optatam Totius) States that seminarians "should be taught to seek Christ in the faithful meditation on God's word, in the active participation in the sacred mysteries of the Church, especially in the Eucharist. . ."(Sec: The Careful Development of the Spiritual Training). Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) Acknowledges that the Catholic understanding of the Eucharistic is not symbolic as in other Christian denominations: "Although we believe that they have not retained the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the Sacrament of Orders. . . therefore, the teaching concerning the Lord's Supper, the other sacraments, worship, the ministry of the Church, must be the subject of the dialogue." (Sec: Separated Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West). Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum) The document is concerned with Divine Revelation, so Eucharistic references are scant. However, it maintains that the Scriptures are best revealed in the sacred liturgy. Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops in the Church (Christus Dominus) States the role and responsibilities of the bishop in the Church. One such responsibility is that "They should therefore see to it that the faithful know and live the paschal mystery more deeply through the Eucharist . . ."(Chapter II, Sec I: Diocesan Bishops). Decree on the Apostolate of Lay People (Apostolicam Actuositatem) Document explains the role of the laity in the Church such that, "Charity, which is, as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate, is given to them and nourished in them by the sacraments, the Eucharist above all."(Chapter I, Sec: Foundations of the Lay Apostolate) Decree on the Mission Activity of the Church (Ad Gentes) Document which elaborates on the Church's missionary activity. To be missionary we must know and be like Christ primarily through reception of the Sacraments: "As members of the living Christ, incorporated into Him and made like unto Him through baptism and through confirmation and the Eucharist, all the faithful are duty-bound to cooperate in the expansion and spreading out of His Body, to bring it to fullness as soon as may be (Eph. 4:13)."(Chapter VI: Cooperation) On the Church in the Modern World (Gaudium Et Spes) This document provides direction for the Church in today's world. The Church strives to be that spotless bride to be presented at the "wedding feast of the Lamb" The Eucharist help us to become holy, "The Lord left behind a pledge of this hope and strength for life's journey in that sacrament of faith where natural elements refined by man are gloriously changed into His Body and Blood, providing a meal of brotherly solidarity and a foretaste of the heavenly banquet." (Chapter III: Man's Activity Throughout the World) Declaration on Christian Education (Gravissimum Educationis) States that Christian education should help children, "become ever more aware of the gift of Faith they have received, and that they learn in addition how to worship God the Father in spirit and truth (cf. John 4:23) especially in liturgical action . . ." (Chapter II: Christian Education) Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite (Orientalium Ecclesiarum) "The Sacred Ecumenical Council confirms and approves the ancient discipline of the sacraments existing in the Oriental Churches . . ." (Sec: The Discipline of the Sacraments). However, as Catholics we are to celebrate the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass because of other unresolved differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Churches. Adaptation and Renewal of Religious Life (Perfectae Caritatis) Encourages religious to receive the Eucharist often to nourish the spiritual life, "They should celebrate the sacred liturgy, especially the holy sacrifice of the Mass, with both lips and heart as the Church desires and so nourish their spiritual life from this richest of sources." Other documents which do not reference the Eucharist: Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae), On the Relation to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate), Guidelines on Religious Relations with the Jews, Decree on the Means of Social Communication (Inter Mirifica)
Though I'm no longer active in the Movement, DivineMercy, it proved to be the means the Lord chose to rescue me from the deception of the evil one. The prayer meeting was the familiar setting for the exercising of gifts and during the 15 years I was actively involved, God blessed me with several gifts, one which was a prayer language of tongues. Even to this day, there are occasions where I utilize this gift. Actually, one occasion occurred within the last couple of weeks that proved very unique. Two days a week I'm a chaplain in a local nursing home. A number of residents have various degrees of dementia. One gentlemen is usually left in his room. Aides will sponge bathe him and feed him, but at this stage, he lives in his own world and generally cannot interact with others. He is pleasant in that he mumbles nonsensical words and laughs to himself. I have gone in his room and prayed for him and blessed him, but he never has responded to my presence until 10 days ago. When I entered his room he was in a gentle sing-song mood. At that point I felt led to gently sing in tongues for about 10 secs and stop. Surprisingly, this man paused and then began his revelry for about 20 secs and paused, whereupon I restarted my refrain in tongues once more. This went on for about 5 minutes. I was floored. It was the first time I had ever experienced any give-and-take with him. His language, my prayer tongues, his language, my prayer tongues... A quiet joy welled up in my heart as I walked down the hall to visit another resident. 1 Cor: 12:30 All do not speak with tongues, do they, [but]1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
Yes, you're quite right, there can be abuses, though I would not throw the baby out with the bath water.. It was to that I was referring rather than your good self. I am sorry I should have made that clearer. Although on the other hand I was listninng to the bio of a hero of mine, a Puritan gentleman called George Fox the Founder of the Quakers. Very like another hero of mine John Wesley the Founder of Methodism, also intensely charismatic. I especially like the Quakers because they were and are such a gentle, charitable courageous people. George must have been the most charismatic of charismatic gentleman and the approach they make in their Meeting Houses of simply waiting in silence for the Holy Spirit to speak I find touching. There is a story one time of George Fox that someone happened upon him alone praying and his head was surrounded by light. This reminds me so much of the stories of our Catholic saints. The Quakers do so much good too. I would say they are Chairsmatics, but a kind of strange ordered Charismatics. I love the film, 'Genlte Persuasion', so much. How annoying you can;t get the film on utube apart from Russian. I love to watch it. I would love to visit Pennsylvania to see how they got on out there. Poor people; I think they were often martyred more in the colonies than they were in England.
