The problem with the Donotists was that their beliefs that a priest could not administer the Sacraments due to their sins (in this case priests who had handed over the sacred things to the enemy of the Church and then been returned to their positions by Constantine) placed the impetus of the super natural nature of those Sacraments and power, grace and mercy of God alone hinging on mans worthiness. God most often uses the weakest among us to accomplish His work. They are those who rely on Him in all things. However, (and this is a bit esoteric) I think it was one of the original attempts of the enemy to poison the well so to speak. I say this because no matter how righteous a man appears he is never worthy and his works are rags before God. Regardless of our triumph over sin by the Grace of God we are not to become puffed up and fall prey to pride. So the enemy tried to add some yeast to the bread in this way. I think in some ways it is relational to what we see in the Sedevacanist movement in the Church. My personal views are that in the VII counsel there were a few who were aligned not to God or to the Holy Spirit but to another and that they through their cunning sought to change both the Mass and the rites of consecration of the Bishops and Priests thereby attempting to nullify the sacrifice and the communion with Jesus of the Faithful. I think they used the spirit of the age to sway others into supporting their efforts. I also think that obviously not all of their efforts were successful but that some were. Many men with incredible care have poured over these sacraments and rites and declared them valid. That said, why do we see the fruits of these changes bringing forth fruit which is rotten? Children who leave the Faith never to return, marriages torn apart, support of contraception, abortion, perversions of every sort both inside the clergy and out, education of the children of the faithful which flies in the face of God's revealed Truth and teaches heresies, Priests who preach another Gospel, a Church which increasingly mirrors the world rather than being the light of it brings forth a Pope of the same design. The web is woven. Now, we see the final efforts. The attempt to overthrow the authority of the Papacy and to have the Pope himself hand over his authority granted to him by Jesus. God can not deceive nor be deceived but we can if we are not wise as serpents and harmless as doves. We remain in Him and He in us. We should ask ourselves; Do we know His voice or not? The enemy wishes for us to lose the Faith by this. He accuses us day and night before God and when he is thrown out of Heaven he comes to persecute the Saints and the Faithful.
Wise words. I find myself coming closer to Christ through this Fire, this Test of Faith. But my heart truly goes out to those whose Faith is shaken. To them I recall the words of St Peter, the First Pope , 'Where shall we go Lord? You have the message of Eternal Life? John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. https://www.wikiart.org/en/francisco-de-zurbaran/appearance-of-st-peter-to-st-peter-nolasco-1629
There are two sides to a sacrament, the human and the Divine elements. The Latter is always in control.
St. Teresa of Avila wrote: "Once, while approaching to receive Communion, I saw with my soul's eyes more clearly than with my bodily eyes two devils whose appearance was abominable. It seems to me their horns were wrapped around the poor priest's throat, and in the host that was going to be given to me I saw my Lord with the majesty I mentioned placed in the priest's hands, which were clearly seen to be His offender's; and I understood that that soul was in mortal sin. What would it be my Lord, to see Your beauty in the midst of such abominable figures? They were as though frightened and terrified in Your presence, for it seems they would have very eagerly fled had You allowed them. This vision caused me such great disturbance I don't know how I was able to receive Communion, and I was left with a great fear, thinking that if the vision had been from God, His Majesty would not have permitted me to see the evil that was in that soul. The Lord Himself told me to pray for him and that He had permitted it so that I might understand the power of the words of consecration and how God does not fail to be present, however evil the priest who recites them, and that I might see His great goodness since He places Himself in those hands of His enemy, and all out of love for me and for everyone. I understood well how much more priests are obliged to be good than are others, how deplorable a thing it is to receive this most Blessed Sacrament unworthily, and how much the devil is lord over the soul in mortal sin. It did me a great deal of good and brought me deep understanding of what I owed God. May He be blessed forever and ever."
But are there any invalid priests due to invalid ordinations for whatever reason....and so one doesn't have a case of mortal sin or other bad intentions within the "priest" but an authentic priest is actually not present but only a man masquerading as a priest? Or can anyone, false or missing information about the man, be ordained and the ceremony and words/ritual alone create the validity while no one is aware of the "set up"??? So then there are no valid sacraments coming from that man? I wasn't talking about a validly ordained priest who later administers the sacraments validly while being himself in sin or with bad intentions. I believe there are cases of someone presenting himself as a priest and nothing discovered for years in some obscure places of the world.....with perhaps fraudulent papers or such presented as proof.
New Jersey Hotline For Clergy Sex Abuse Claims Flooded With Calls, Officials Say NEWARK, N.J. (CBSNewYork) — A hotline created to document reports of clergy sex abuse in New Jersey is receiving so many calls that some can’t even get through. The round-the-clock call center opened last week as part of a new investigation by Attorney General Gurbir Grewal. Fred Marigliano says it took him more than 50 years to speak out about being abused by his priest when he was 11-years-old. “All I wanted to do was not be raped again,” he told CBS2. “Sometimes I still have nightmares.” “All I wanted to do was not be raped again,” he told CBS2. “Sometimes I still have nightmares.” His sobering story was told to a crowd that included Cardinal Joseph Tobin at Newark’s Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart on Friday. On Saturday, he called it in to Grewal’s office via the hotline that’s been slammed virtually nonstop with calls from other survivors. “It rang maybe 10 times,” survivor Joe Capozzi said. “It hung up and a message came up saying we’re unable to take your call.” Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro released a grand jury report last month which alleged there’s more than 1,000 victims of sexual abuse by more than 300 Roman Catholic priests in the state over the past seven decades. Soon after, Grewal created the hotline to identify potential victims in New Jersey. He wouldn’t discuss the exact number of calls coming in, but he did confirm the volume is so high it’s forced him to assign additional staff. Attorney Greg Gianforcaro says he’s interacted with at least 300 victims in New Jersey, and he thinks the state’s total number will most likely surpass Pennsylvania’s. “In 1958, New Jersey passed the charitable immunity legislation, that basically immunized this kind of abuse by religious clerics,” Gianforcaro said on Friday. “I think under these circumstances I believe that New Jersey was a safe haven for pedophile priests.” Survivors say the state’s statute of limitations has given them another reason to call. “We want you to go back and do away with the statute of limitations so these people… these people that raped us and raped our kids can pay the price,” Marigliano said. Cardinal Tobin says he supports eliminating the statute of limitations. “I think a blanket question like that is hard sometimes, because you have to ask to what do statute of limitations do that we’ve kept them around for so long? But I do believe there’s something unique about this crime in that people often don’t realize what happened to them until they are adults,” Newark’s Archbishop said. “Demand the truth, because Jesus said the truth will set us free.” Grewal says a state task force will use the calls to present evidence to a state grand jury. “I kept my secret for 20 years, and it ate me up inside,” Capozzi said. “It was slowly killing me, and now being able to call up the hotline, leave your name, leave your information and let go of that secret because then you can start healing.” New York’s Attorney General Barbara Underwood has also launched an investigation into all eight Roman Catholic dioceses in the state. Underwood’s office also announced a hotline — 1-800-771-7755 — for individuals to call to report allegations of clergy abuse, as well as a confidential online complaint form that can be found at ag.ny.gov/ClergyAbuse. https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/09/15/new-jersey-clergy-sex-abuse-hotline/
The secular news is having a field day... Dutch Catholic church accused of widespread sexual abuse cover-up 20 of 39 Dutch cardinals, bishops and auxiliaries ‘covered up sexual abuse, allowing perpetrators to cause many more victims’, report says Agence France-Presse | https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/16/dutch-catholic-church-accused-of-widespread-cover--up Sat 15 Sep 2018 21.51 EDT Last modified on Mon 17 Sep 2018 09.49 EDT Pope Francis. The Catholic church is facing allegations of covering up the sexual abuse of children across the world. Photograph: Tony Gentile/Reuters More than half of the Netherlands’ senior clerics were involved in covering up sexual assault of children between 1945 and 2010, a press report claimed on Saturday, further engulfing the Catholic church in a global abuse scandal. Over the course of 65 years, 20 of 39 Dutch cardinals, bishops and their auxiliaries “covered up sexual abuse, allowing the perpetrators to cause many more victims”, the daily NRC reported. “Four abused children and 16 others allowed the transfer of paedophile priests who could have caused new victims in other parishes,” the Dutch newspaper added. Church spokeswoman Daphne van Roosendaal said the church could “confirm a part” of the report. Other elements were based on anonymous information provided by a victims’ assistance unit set up by the church. “The names of several bishops correspond to those named in a report commissioned by the church in 2010,” van Roosendaal said. Most of the accused clerics have since died, and the statute of limitations has expired in all cases, she added. Those still alive declined to comment, NRC said. Meanwhile in France, a priest has been charged with sexually abusing four siblings, now aged 13 to 17, his lawyer said. The family brought the complaint against the 64-year-old priest, whose parish is in the central Cantal region. All four siblings were said to be in the church choir. The lawyer, Komine Bocoum, did not say when the alleged offences were said to have taken place. Local bishop Bruno Grua said his diocese was “shocked by these unspeakable acts”. They are the latest in a slew of assault allegations against the Catholic church spanning several continents. People in Australia, Europe, and North and South America have charged they were sexually abused by clergymen and lay people, in what German Archbishop Georg Gaenswein has called the church’s “own 9/11”. In August, Pope Francis declined to comment on a claim that he ignored sexual abuse allegations against a senior clergyman in the US. On Wednesday, the German Catholic church said it was it was “dismayed and ashamed” by decades of alleged child sex abuse by priests. • This article was amended on 17 September 2018 to correct details of the gender and age of four siblings who have made sexual assault allegations against a priest in Cantal, France.
I think you will find answers to your questions at the following links: The Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm Canon Law Made Easy (a great website in Q&A format): http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/archives/ This link is to a question about whether a priest's ordination can be annulled but it explains what makes an ordination valid: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2016/11/10/can-a-priest-have-his-ordination-annulled/ This link is to a question about a priest moving to a different diocese and covers excardination/incardination: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2014/07/31/priest-transfer-another-diocese/
Some here were discussing this a little bit on this thread already, Archbishop McCarrick’s unofficial role in Vatican-China relations by Courtney Grogan/CNA posted Monday, 17 Sep 2018 | http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...s-unofficial-role-in-vatican-china-relations/ Cardinal Theodore McCarrick in 2003 (Getty Images) The former cardinal played in key role in promoting Vatican-Beijing relations Following reports that the Holy See and the People’s Republic of China could be about to sign an agreement on the appointment of bishops in the country, attention has turned to the role of Archbishop Theodore McCarrick in fostering Vatican-China relations over the last two decades. Over 20 years, Archbishop McCarrick travelled to China on at least eight occasions, sometimes staying in a state-controlled Beijing seminary, often serving as an unofficial bridge between the Vatican and Chinese government-appointed bishops until 2016. Prior to allegations of sexual abuse and harassment becoming public this summer, the former cardinal had been an outspoken proponent of a deal between Chinese President Xi Jinping and the Church under Pope Francis, according to Chinese reports. “I see a lot of things happening that would really open many doors because President Xi and his government are concerned about things that Pope Francis is concerned about,” McCarrick told The Global Times, in an exclusive interview in Feb. 2016. The interview quoted McCarrick as saying that the similarities between Pope Francis and Xi Jinping could be “a special gift for the world.” The state-approved Chinese newspaper also reported that McCarrick traveled to China in Feb. 2016 — “a trip in which the cardinal said he would visit some ‘old friends.’” “His previous visits included meetings with Wang Zuo’an, head of the State Administration for Religious Affairs and late bishop Fu Tieshan, former president of Bishops’ Conference of the Catholic Church in China (BCCCC), an organization not recognized by the Holy See,” The Global Times reported. In June 2014, David Gibson reported in the Washington Post that McCarrick had traveled to China “in the past year” for “sensitive talks on religious freedom.” This detail aligns, in part, with the 11-page “testimony” of former apostolic nuncio Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò. Viganò recounted a meeting with McCarrick in June 2013, during which Vigano claims he was told by McCarrick, “The pope received me yesterday, tomorrow I am going to China.” McCarrick was hosted by the Beijing seminary during at least two trips to China, according to a 2006 State Department document made available via Wikileaks. The vice-rector of a Communist-approved seminary, Fr. Shu-Jie Chen, described twice hosting McCarrick in an account found in a cable from Christopher Sandrolini, Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy to the Holy See. Chen described himself as “king” of the seminary, saying that he “could do what he wanted within its walls.” Sandrolini also noted that the vice rector “downplayed persecution of the underground Church,” calling the underground church “uneducated” and “elderly.” He said that Chen seemed “unconcerned” that “evangelization was not an option for official religious personnel. A cable from U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican Francis Rooney in March 2006 noted that Archbishop Claudio Celli, who was at that time the Holy See’s principal China negotiator, insisted that McCarrick was not in a position to negotiate with China and that his visits to China were “unofficial.” There appears to be a gap between McCarrick’s trips to China between 2006 and 2013, though McCarrick’s influence was still active. In 2009, the archbishop had a message relayed to a friend in China through Nancy Pelosi, then Speaker of the House of Representatives. Pelosi conveyed McCarrick’s greetings to Bishop Aloysius Jin of Shanghai, formerly a leading Chinese Jesuit. “She [Pelosi] relayed Cardinal McCarrick’s good wishes to Bishop Jin. Bishop Jin said he and Cardinal McCarrick had exchanged visits, beginning when the latter was Bishop of Newark,” the State Department cable reads. During McCarrick’s time as Archbishop of Newark, Aloysius Jin Luxian was not recognized as a bishop by the Vatican. He was ordained a coadjutor bishop of Shanghai without papal approval in 1985, his position was not recognized by the Vatican until 2004. Bishop Jin died in 2013. A 2007 article in The Atlantic described the close friendship between McCarrick and Jin, and how McCarrick claimed to have relayed messages from the Chinese government-appointed bishop to the pope in the 1990s. Both the State Department and Chinese media recorded a 1998 visit to China by Archbishop McCarrick. On that trip he was one of three American clerics to visit China to discuss religious freedom, meeting with Bishop Michael Fu Tieshan, vice-chairman of the Chinese Communist Party’s Standing Committee of the Chinese National People’s Congress. Fu was made a bishop by Beijing 1979 without approval of the pope. Chinese media reported that McCarrick paid a visit to the National Seminary in Beijing in 1998. In Aug. 2, 2003, the South China Morning Post reported that McCarrick “spent three days in Beijing earlier this week on what was ostensibly a private visit.” McCarrick was “the first cardinal from a western country to visit the mainland since relations between China and the Vatican turned frosty after a dispute over canonisation in October 2000,” the article continued. In a Dec. 2003 State Department cable, U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican Jim Nicholson wrote that Vatican Office Director for China Monsignor Gianfranco Rota-Graziosi “did not expect concrete improvement stemming from the informal trip last summer of Washington Cardinal McCarrick to China.” On Sept. 14, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Holy See could be about to enter a deal with China which would include the recognition of seven illicitly consecrated bishops serving in the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association – a state-sponsored form of Catholicism whose leaders are chosen by Communist authorities. Reports of the Holy See and Chinese government working towards a formal agreement on the appointment of bishops have been circulating since January, 2018. At the same time, China has launched an increasing crackdown on religious practice in the country, demolishing churches and harassing worshippers.
Dolours, thank you for the info. The questions about valid ordinations with those possible factors for invalidity actually being real things, attempting to get the final answer could truly cause, as the author himself notes..."a real mess". So, I suppose in such cases we'll really just never know for sure. With the growing realization of very "progressive" Bishops these days who could care less about the laws of the Church et al, having developed for decades, such "intentions" within the individual Bishop at the time of ordination/s will have to fall, finally, on God's judgement of that Bishop. Wouldn't want to be in his shoes at such an unimaginable moment!
Since we're on the subject of ordinations, here's how a faithful Bishop addresses the gathering at an ordination: http://www.kath.net/news/65155 . The link is to a German Catholic website so you may have to use Google translate as I did. The priest being ordained is a member of the Servants of Jesus and Mary which according to Wikipedia are a Roman Catholic Congregation which was founded in 1988 by Andreas Hönisch, a former Jesuit, expelled by his congregation due to his traditional views of the Catholic doctrine and pedagogy. Just another example of how far we have fallen when someone of Cardinal Muller's caliber is forced into early retirement while the likes of Cardinal McCarrick was brought back into service despite his track record and having well passed his best-before date. It's downright scary that Cardinal Muller's replacement at the CDF is a Jesuit. I had been reading yesterday the passage of St. Luke's Gospel where the Pharisees told Jesus to rebuke his disciples for proclaiming him the king who comes in the name of the Lord. Jesus responded by saying that if the disciples were quiet, the stones would cry out. On reading that, the first thought to occur to me was that if the stones were to cry out now our hierarchy would pass it off as climate change. Cardinal Muller teaches like a true successor of the Apostles. For those who prefer not to open an external link, I'll post the translation on a thread in the "Coffee House" section of the forum.
Something similar happened to the founder of the Schoenstatt movement, Fr. Kentenich, back in 1914. He saw that movement as a means of spiritual renewal in the Church. Seems that the rejected stones have become the corner stones. https://catholicexchange.com/fr-jos...the-schoenstatt-movement-friend-of-the-rosary
At least, it is becoming easier to know the good guys from the baddies. What's most discouraging is the amount of cowards waiting to see how the coin turns up.
I don't know it this has been posted on the site before. But I watched it for the first time this morning. It is the best insight into the mind , motives and agenda of Pope Francis I have seen. It's very very honest and insightful. Sad times. The Church is in huge, huge trouble. It would scare you to death.
Padraig, I just listened to this whole thing and it did scare me to death! My jaw fell on the floor! I had no idea the kind of man we were dealing with. But I’ll never forget the feeling I had, much like Mr. Coffin, of gloom when I watched him stand on the balcony on the night of his election... a feeling of a descending darkness... an eerie dread when he just stood there without speaking for several minutes... it’s hard to pray for him but I must increase my prayers as I’m afraid he needs them more than we thought!
Well to be honest, you know the feeling I have had? If they had every person on the face of the Plenet to choose from who could gave been Pope they could not possiblu have chosen worse than the guy we are stuck with... ...and there are what three billion people here? ..and he is the Spirtual Father of one billion od then? .... a guy who sounds like a perpetual Editorial from the New York Times?. ahhh it kills me, it does, it just about kills me, even to look at hime the pictures, just so totally, totallly depressing, every word that comes out of hsi mouth zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Well , I'm not a fan . Enough said. Even one thing he sent donations from Peter's Pence to support Hillary Clinton in her Presidential campaign? My money..such as it is....to support Hillary Clinton? It is illegal. It is amoral It is not something a Pope should never even been thinking about being have been doing.
Tuesday, September 18, 2018 “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all... If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” —1 John 1:5-10, cited in a 2016 essay by Archbishop Alexander Sample of Portland, Oregon, USA (reprinted below) which stresses that the supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls. The passage from the First Letter of John is relevant to the present crisis of clerical sexual abuse and cover-ups in the Church "Salus animarum suprema lex ('The salvation of souls is the supreme law (of the Church)')." —Canon 1752 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law (link), the collection of the laws which govern the Church "When the Church ceases to be 'the mysterium lunae [the mystery of the moon],' that is, to depend on Christ for receiving and reflecting his, not its own, light, it then 'gives way to that very serious evil, spiritual worldliness, which according to (Jesuit Cardinal Henri-Marie) De Lubac, is the worst evil that can befall the Church,' said then-Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio. The Church then 'lives to give glory only to one another,'... he added." —A 2013 article by Carol Glatz describing the remarks then-Cardinal Bergoglio made in front of the College of Cardinals in the days before the Conclave in which he was elected Pope. Bergolgio warned that "spiritual worldiness" was the "worst evil" that could befall the Church. The accusation of Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano in his "Testimony" is that that evil has, in fact, befallen the Church, and must be fought and removed (link) ============================ Day #25 Today is the 25th day since the publication of Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano's "Testimony." (The full text is here; it was made public on the evening of August 25.) A lot is happening in Italy, and throughout the world, some of it quite dangerous for the integrity of the Church's perennial teaching and unity. I will offer an overview of these events in my next letter, but for the moment I wanted to consider a larger issue: the salvation of souls. Many forget souls can be lost. Even to speak in such terms can seem today something silly, and many hearing it may say "Thou speaketh of nothing," as Romeo said to his friend, the raving Mercutio, in Act 1 of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Because few any longer believe that men have souls, or are souls. This is how far we have fallen. So perhaps, in line with Walker Percy's argument that words "wear out" and are no longer understood in a new generation, or only understood partially — partially right, and partially wrong — it may (perhaps) be better to speak rather of a "human person" than of a "soul." Precisely our fidelity to orthodox doctrine — which we were taught from our youth that we must persist in to the end, no matter what — may require us to discover a new vocabulary in order to speak the truths of our faith... truths that the old words expressed in a beautiful way, but truths which today can no longer be understood in those old formulations, because the old words have "worn out." So this is the point. There are miseries than everyone wants to end, to heal. All of us wish to end the misery of confusion, self-hatred. So all of us have a desire to "care for souls." But we just do not use those terms any more. So let's put it this way. People, persons, individuals ("souls") can become confused, beset by doubts, tormented by self-loathing, addicted to (and defensive about) evil habits and sins, even justifying them as good. They can become unable to conceive of any need to change course or direction. In the end, they can fall into that psychological-spiritual death which we call despair -- lack of all hope. This final condition is terrible. No one who cares for a person — a son, a daughter, a friend, even an enemy(!) — would wish to leave that person in such a condition. In such a condition, the person (soul) has no hope of escaping guilt and meaninglessness and, in the words of St. Francis, "Sister bodily Death." In such a condition, the person has no hope of escaping the "triple death" of condemnation (death in moral terms), meaninglessness (death in Logos terms, the Logos being the meaning of all things), and death itself (death in material terms, the seeming definitive end of all existence). And so, in this context, we say, following the Code of Canon Law (Canon 1752), that the ultimate purpose of the Church, the "supreme law" of the Church, is the "salvation" of "souls." We mean by this that the Church, if she provides nothing else, must provide — to confused, doubting, sinful, despairing people (souls) — truth. She must provide those truths, those realities, those sanctifying mysteries, which can heal ("save") suffering people from guilt and final condemnation (damnation), emptiness and final meaninglessness (Logos-lessness), and sickness and final death (material death). The Church does this in one way: by point to Christ. Not to herself. The Church offers a "connection" to the One who conquered death, a "link" to, a "communion with," the One who, being Holy, could not be bound by death, but lives eternally in a realm transcending time (that is, in eternity). Jesus came to give humanity hope, to give individual humans hope, so that condemnation, meaninglessness and death might not have the final word. He founded His Church, with her sacramental system, 2,000 years ago, to bear witness to, and "incarnate" until the end of the world, this saving mission. So, in all that She does, the Church must bear witness to the One who saves, and not to Herself — precisely as Pope Francis told his fellow cardinals when he spoke to them before he was elected Pope (link), telling them that the Church is like the moon, shining with the reflected light of the sun, who is Christ, and that without Christ, and His teaching, and His holiness, the face of the Church would be as dark and cold as the face of the moon without the light of the sun. For this reason, to carry out her mission, the Church must seek out out all truth, and declare it, not hide and cover-up the truth, in a conspiracy of silence. This is why this current scandal must be faced head on, and the conspiracy of silence and cover-up must end. All the truth should come out, for the sake of the salvation of souls, the supreme law of the Church.
'For this reason, to carry out her mission, the Church must seek out out all truth, and declare it, not hide and cover-up the truth, in a conspiracy of silence.'
