I'm beginning to think that the critics of Francis don't know what the criticisms actually are, they just see a web page on lifesitenews as no one seems to be able to find a problem with Bishop Elbs interview.
I don't know, David, because I don't have an issue with the other two sources that reported on the interview. When Josephite quoted one of them, you told him/her to pay no attention because the source was anti-Pope Francis. Since you don't trust that site, why don't you compare what they quoted from the interview with the translation I supplied and let us know where the Bishop was misquoted or Pope Francis unfairly attacked. Then, perhaps, you can bring yourself to answering Josephite's original question with something other than the "beautiful document" type of response which is getting as hackneyed as "Jesus ate with sinners". I was doing you a favour by suggesting that you pick a word to search for to make it easy for you to make the comparisons. Sorry, now, that I bothered. I can't speak for Josephite, but in his/her position, I would regret having bothered to ask the question.
I have not got EWTN. I would be grateful if you could give me a flavour of what he is saying . So interesting.
Wow. You dont know? Try reading the Catechism " At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. the universe itself will be renewed: The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.629 1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."630 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."631 1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.632 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away. This is why I was critical of following so much apocalyptic garbage. You dont seem to know the basic teaching on the end of time
Hi Josephite, Personally I would have no problem with the Pope (or CDF) clearing up the erroneous things said by Bishop Elb. But that changes nothing from the reality of AL in terms of the legitimate practise that in certain probably rare cases, Penenance and the Blessed Sacrament could be receieved by those in irregular situations.Like David, I believe those cardinals and others who are critical, are fully aware that nothing has changed from veritatis Splendour in that personal conscience without guidance can be in error. I showed that yesterday with a quote from Pope Francis to the European Council. For them there is a definate lack of interest in the truth that subjective guilt will be of different degrees for each person in these situations.That is why I believe Francis has little time for them because they are not interested in the true judgment of God who decides on intentions and the heart. Sad that many dont know the heart of Jesus that is a blazing furnace of mercy for those trapped in sin -yes sin great sin! but not mortal sin. TO CLARIFY: contraception is not a choice unless one wants to committ sin of grave matter, but guilt can be lessened due to circumstances Homosexual unions -with sexual activity fall in the same category. Conscience has to be formulated by the teaching of the Church -but, and this is a big but, and I believe where Pope Francis has Scripure on his side, St John taught (as we read at Mass yesterday "Beloved, if conscience does not condemn us, we can appear boldly before God", this must apply also to those in genuine error who therefore fall short of mortal sin. I hope that answers things without making excuses for the Bishop. I repeat what ive said all along: I am with the Pope and the bishops united to him; not those who twist his teachings whether its traditionalist of liberal bishops.
Thank you Smudger, it is good to know that you................. would have no problem with the Pope (or CDF) clearing up the erroneous things said by Bishop Elb. And it is edifying to hear you say...........contraception is not a choice unless one wants to committ sin of grave matter, but guilt can be lessened due to circumstances: Homosexual unions -with sexual activity fall in the same category. and especially that ...................................Conscience has to be formulated by the teaching of the Church The above is all that the dubia is asking clarification on; by the 4 Cardinals! I don't understand why you believe that these Cardinals and others who are critical, are not interested in the true judgment of God who decides on intentions and the heart! Because I believe these Cardinals are fully aware of Gods judgements on intentions and the heart, and are additionally aware; just like you and me and so many faithful Catholics of the serious and painful fact, that there are Bishops like Bishop Elb who have already twisted the AL and who will do worse in the future!! I believe these Cardinals are looking after the Church by wanting these errors stopped in there tracks!
This, from the Catholic Herald, stems from a tweet by Cardinal Napier of Durban, South Africa: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...uestion-what-about-communion-for-polygamists/ Cardinal Napier Tweeted: If Westerners in irregular situations can receive Communion, are we to tell our polygamists & other "misfits" that they too are allowed?
I must add to the last sentence and qualify "and who will do worse in the future" WITH NO CONSEQUENCE OR REBUTTAL FROM THE VATICAN'S HIGHEST OFFICE. The only ones to date who have endured the wrath of criticism from the Vatican have been the orthodox clergy.
Hi Josephite, I believe that because its authenic pastoral theology and if they accepted it as they should, they shouldnt need to question what Francis has done. I have a book called Marriage Questions by two eminent moral theologians from pre vatican II time, and they are always quoting popes and documents of the Holy Office (what is now the CDF), and yet they often refer to the lessening of moral culpability in relation to sexual issues. Also there is an interesting part about a controversy from the 1950's as to whether using NPF all through marriage was a mortal sin. A few theologians thought is was but the majority thought no. These two theologians said Pius XII could have settled it but deliberately avoided doing so to allow for further theological reflection. They quoted several confessors who privately held the opinion that it was possibly mortal sin, but would never deny absolution because there was not uninamity among theologians. European priests wondered if it was mortal' american priests wanted to know if it was, what made it so. They also discuss hedonism v intimacy. Where is the line drawn? And of course the answer is only the couple can know in conscience. They also point out an issue which shows how even in pre VaticantII days, confessors knew how to evalutae subjective guilt. Take for instance amplexus reservartus -intercourse for period of time in which no climax occurs for either. They say for some very rare cases it could be mortal sin, most venail, and some no sin at all. That shows how complex situations can have totally different moral results.
I should clarify that in my previous post, the idea of NPF being mortal sin possibly, related to those using it to avoid children totally, not those parents with one or more who have decided against more
We have no reason to suppose that every diocese isn't receiving a "no other interpretation" letter that will be leaked some time in the future, the explanation being that as part of the decentralisation of the Church, each Bishop has authority to implement AL as he sees fit for what is important in his own region. According to Bishop Elbe, the Pope has said that "one must look more closely at what is important in individual regions". Bishop (probably soon to be Cardinal if some excuse can be found to demote Cardinal Burke) Elbe said that Doctrine has changed in that the open door is there. In a decentralised Church, I suppose that one Bishop's interpretation on what's beyond the open door is as good as another's.
Padraig, I taped the show but haven't watched it yet. If you want to look on EWTN's Youtube page they post most or all of their shows a couple of days after they are on TV. Raymond Arroyo is on Thursday nights , so I would expect it to show up Sunday or Monday. There are a couple of recent interviews on Arroyo's "The World Over" with Cardinal Burke and a round table discussion on Amoris Laetitia you might be interested in. https://www.youtube.com/user/EWTN
Just read this Padraig. Please try to watch it on YouTube. Arroyo the commentator was excellent! All I can tell you is that the guests were stunned by what is happening with the Pope. The priest interviewed was so disturbed, but yet very gracious and respectful. Both guests were in shock.
I was just thinking the other might how sometimes you can see how God has and had a plan for America under the Generalship of Mary for these times and you can see this most clearly in some of the people thrown unto the Battle Field. People like Archbishop Fulton Sheen and Mother Angelica, Fr Hard on , Bishop Schneider, Cardinal Burke and so on. All these saints and great warriors of God fighting under the direction of the Mother of God. One of the things you notice about these folks is this huge Orthodoxy , their courage and fearless, their clear sightedness. in a time of whirling mists and fogs. How superbly the Holy Spirit has euipped these saints of God, equipped for out times. How more wonderfully still he sends others unto to the Battle Field against the Heresies arisng like huge killing weeds in our Church. New Warriors like Raymond. Praise you Jesus! Thank you Mother of God!!
