Insight

I would just humbly add that many of you may not be around large numbers of marrying-aged people. I don't think the Pope was talking about anyone on this forum or their children when he said most marriages today are invalid. he was not talking about most people who are married today either, he was talking about marriages being entered into in these days. Whether the wedding happens in a church or not, young people today, present company excepted, do not see marriage as a lifetime bond, they do not see it as a sacrifice but only something they can get out of the future spouse, they do not see it as connected at all to whether or not they have children. It is an economic arrangement. That is what I see among the 20 and 30 somethings I am around. That is what Francis was talking about. He is right and in is a big problem and not only outside the church.

As far as what he said about gays, at no point did he say the homosexual lifestyle was good, any more than Jesus said to the women caught in adultery her lifestyle was good. He simply separated the sin from the person in order to extend mercy to the person. I know every single person on this forum, in a real life situation, would never turn away a neighbor in need who lost a job or fell ill because you knew the person was homosexual. The person has to be ministered to and loved. The sin does not have to be condoned to do that and we have many examples of Jesus doing just so.

 

Will definitely keep you in my prayers, Torrentum. Very sad to see you go but understandable.

Somewhere old skinny legs is wringing his hands in delight as he chalks up another win towards his goal to divide and conquer

 

Thank you for proving my point . You've got nothing ! ( The fear of heresy is not heresy ! )

 

I have now moved Glenn to the top of these guys must read Pascendi tree.

 

Please Padraig....rethink your position....I am praying for you brother....I am...talk to a spiritual director of some sort.....God Bless you because this forum has meant the world to me in a very dark real world....

 

Indeed.

"The Church's moral theology has always distinguished between objective or material sin and formal sin. The person who holds something contrary to the Catholic faith is materially a heretic. They possess the matter of heresy, theological error. Thus, prior to the Second Vatican Council it was quite common to speak of non-Catholic Christians as heretics, since many of their doctrines are objectively contrary to Catholic teaching. This theological distinction remains true, though in keeping with the pastoral charity of the Council today we use the term heretic only to describe those who willingly embrace what they know to be contrary to revealed truth. Such persons are formally (in their conscience before God) guilty of heresy. Thus, the person who is objectively in heresy is not formally guilty of heresy if 1) their ignorance of the truth is due to their upbringing in a particular religious tradition (to which they may even be scrupulously faithful), and 2) they are not morally responsible for their ignorance of the truth. This is the principle of invincible ignorance, which Catholic theology has always recognized as excusing before God."

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

"
Material heresy​

In traditional Catholic theology, the term material heresy refers to an opinion that is objectively contradictory to the teachings of the Church, and as such heretical, but which is uttered by a person without the subjective knowledge of its being so. A person who holds a material heresy may therefore not be a "heretic" in the strict sense. Material heresy is distinguished from "formal heresy", i.e. a heretic opinion proposed deliberately by a person who is aware of its being against the doctrine of the Church."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_heresy

The charge of material heresies is already, easily, proven just by his verbal words on marriage and cohabitation.

The charge of formal heresy must be made by the Church, in a formal proceeding.

Folks don't realize it but they're "punching above their weight." They just don't realize it yet.

 

Ive been holding out hoping that this was all a huge forum charade from Padraig- possibly to draw a fake line, to have people choose sides in this matter, as thought or reflection for members to ponder on "if it were real what would I do?", sifting of his own forum as parallel to what is coming. But I am sadly realizing it is not a facade or charade, and I am still in disbelief and heart broken.

 

I find all of this discussion interesting. I grew up in certain Protestant sects where papal bashing was the norm. I am not a theologian, so I do not have the credentials or mission to declare the pope a heretic. I do not know the credentials of the people on this forum. I do know the fallen angels are masters of deception and it is easy to become deceived through my own pride. I have found in matters of religious doctrine, many times people will take a quote from this pope and take it out of context. Jesus said if we offend one of this little ones, it is better that a millstone was put around our neck and we be drowned in the sea. I have had to repent of this sin of spiritual pride myself. I suppose, if we asked Jesus his opinion of the pope, we might be surprised at his answer. We need to stick together as Christians in an increasingly non Christian world, and not allow ourselves to be divided by pride. Please do not take these comments personally. It is directed at the overall tone of the discussion.

 

Once you've faced death, really, seriously faced death, you learn spiritual pride is folly, and you spend the rest of your life fighting for God's Kingdom.

 

What???? Are we reading the same thing?

 

This thread is bullshit.
It's causing nothing but division, disappointment and hostility with "your" members.

 

I believe part of the confusion lies in that there is the Office of the Pope, and then there is the Man who fills the position of the Office of The Pope. The Office was created by Jesus, and should be supported even if the Pope is acting nonsensically. This was the mistake that Luther made, instead of bringing reform back into the Church he attacked it. St. Francis on the other hand got it right.

 

I have been following this thread and humbly appeal to those who have noted that they wish to leave the forum to reconsider. I am not a theologian, but I do in my daily work feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give shelter to the homeless and tend to the sick, trying to live my faith. I go to the forum daily attempting to garnish a better understanding of both catholism and life in general during trying times.

This forum made me think some words of mother Theresa

People are often unreasonable, irrational and self centered, forgive them them anyway
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish ulterior motives, be kind anyway
If you are successful you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies, be successful anyway
If you are honest and sincere people may decieve you, be honest and sincere anyway
If you are creative, others can destroy overnight, create anyway
If you find serenity and happiness some may be jealous, be happy anyway
The good you do today will often be forgotten, do good anyway
Give the best you have and it will never be enough, give you best anyway
In the final analysis it is between you and God, it was never between you and them anyway

My prayer is that we stay together and grow!
Best

 

Folks are making a continuous appeal to "obedience." That cuts both ways. (Bold emphasis added.):


http://www.onepeterfive.com/tears-joy-reparation/

Tears of Joy, and of Reparation

Editor’s note: in March, we shared the news with our readers that 1P5 contributor Dr. Brian Kopp had suffered a series of debilitating strokes that were, at the time, life-threatening. By God’s grace, Brian pulled through, and is making progress in his physical recovery. This is his first contribution since that time. Please pray for his continued healing.



I went to my parish for the Traditional Latin Mass today. It was the first time I went there with a pair of forearm crutches instead of a walker, since multiple strokes in March, so I no longer needed to sit in the handicapped pew.

I spent the whole Mass praying ardently for guidance from God and begging Our Lady to pray for me and lead me, given the circumstances with the Church and this pope on whether to stay quiet or what to do and what to say.

I’ve been working on kneeling and genuflecting at PT for two weeks. I was finally able to walk up to Communion with crutches and, for the first time since early March, I was able (with a bit of help) to kneel to receive Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

I started attending the TLM because 1) I wanted to kneel for the Eucharist and 2) I despised liturgical abuse and gravely mistrusted those priests who engaged in it. I don’t love Latin, and I had no attachment to that liturgy (though I do now, especially since I understand the theology of the sacrifice of the mass now given the immensely richer and deeper theology of the old liturgy.)

The pastor stopped his usual walk from side to side to distribute the Eucharist to come to me, so I didn’t have to wait to receive in the kneeling position, the first time I had attempted to do so since March. Then he graciously helped me to stand up from the altar rail, making sure I was steady and had my footing and my crutches before moving on to continue distributing.

When I got back to my pew and knelt in thanksgiving, tears of joy started streaming unbidden down my face. In March, I wasn’t sure if I would ever walk again, and I had just walked to the altar rail. And I knelt and got back up, something I never thought I’d be able to do again. I was thoroughly overjoyed and thankful; I’ve never experienced tears of joy and thanksgiving at Mass.

Then something strange happened. My tears of joy melted into tears of sorrow, and I began weeping. For a very long time. Again, something that I’ve just never done at a Mass, and surely didn’t want to be doing at a TLM where moments before I had experienced rare tears of joy in thanksgiving.

I just don’t cry at Mass, but in an instant I understood. While I had prayed earlier, earnestly, for guidance in the midst of this Church chaos, I realized our pope was making changes to allow those in irregular unions to have access to the Eucharist. While I was experiencing tears of joy at being able to kneel for the Holy Eucharist, at a Mass I started attending to escape liturgical abuse, we had a pope that regularly commits the liturgical abuse of not genuflecting at the Consecration, and not kneeling at Adoration. This despite abundant photos on the Internet of him kneeling to commit the liturgical abuse of washing Muslim women’s feet on Holy Thursday (before he changed the rules so his liturgical abuse became “licit.”)

Pope Francis kisses the foot of a man during the foot-washing ritual at the Castelnuovo di Porto refugees center, some 30km (18, 6 miles) from Rome, Thursday, March 24, 2016. The pontiff washed and kissed the feet of Muslim, Orthodox, Hindu and Catholic refugees Thursday, declaring them children of the same God, in a gesture of welcome and brotherhood at a time when anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiment has spiked following the Brussels attacks. (L’Osservatore Romano/Pool Photo via AP)​

These tears are shared by Our Lady that a priest, the pope, would ignore or disobey liturgical rubrics intended to give praise and glory to her Son’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, but desires to see us kneel before the presence of the poor.

My prayers were answered today. A love for the Real Presence in the Eucharist must be accompanied by corrective words and actions for those who would profane it.

My quadriceps are killing me tonight from kneeling at Mass for the first time since March, so, like every bit of suffering in this long process of strokes and recovery, I’ll actively accept that cross and offer it up to the Father, along with ardent prayers and continued fasting, for our Holy Father and his conversion to defending and preaching orthodoxy and orthopraxis.

But I fear many more tears of reparation will be shed in the weeks and months ahead.

 

Many instances our Blessed Mother Mary and the Apostles did not understand what Jesus did or said. Our Blessed Mother "pondered in her heart" that which she did not understand. As Jesus' mother, she could have questioned Jesus many times in his upbringing and journey, but she did not. The apostles walked with him for 3 years and did not know until after his resurrection many things he had told them prior. They too had to ponder in their hearts what they could not understand. I imagine they had some interesting conversations among themselves when Jesus was elsewhere. What I have witnessed from a few in the past 6 months or more on the MOG, is one attack after another on Pope Francis and this is not the work of Mary, but her adversary. It is one thing to ponder in respectful conversation what he meant by this or that statement, but far from that, it has been a relentless attack on his papacy and the rhetoric finally wore Padraig down and he jumped on the small boat of a few others who were confused and who refused to ponder in their own heart what they could not understand. This is not the work of God. It did however, make me see that the formal schism to come, will come from the far right of the Church, not the left. The Pharisees as Pope Francis coined them. The far left within the Church is who Francis is trying to reach out to within the Year of Mercy and yes, he has used language the the far right have interpreted to be heresy. Jesus was determined to be a heretic too for his 'hard sayings'. As it stands now, MOG has lost a part of its soul and graces are being destroyed by a few who have beaten the drum of anti-Pope Francis since coming on to the forum. Padraig, this is no time to have a 'knee jerk' reaction to words that can be interpreted from both sides. It is time to take a retreat and ponder in your heart as Mary did and stay faithful to the Vicar of Christ, even when in doubt. Do not listen to the few who have itched your ear relentlessly with their spin on his words over and over again. This has been their only quest on the forum from day one. Trust in Jesus that he has a plan, which does not exclude Pope Francis' charisma. Look at where the discussion were in the past in a more prayerful format and look now at where your forum has evolved to. Is this in the Spirit of the Mother God? That's all I have to say.

 

The other day I took my kids to see Finding Dory. It's supposedly the first Disney cartoon to show (briefly) a gay/lesbian couple. My son asked why it's a big deal. I explained to him about desensitization. We'll see it more and more often and in more prominent characters over the years until kids accept it as a normal lifestyle choice. Even Disney has an agenda--and it's not just entertainment. The approach is subtle, insidious.

Any changes that occur in the church will likely occur in the same manner. We will probably never see official changes in doctrine. But any changes that occur will happen slowly over time, with offending priests and bishops going unpunished, so that before we know it, the changes will be accepted as normal, Catholic practice.

Our adversary is as cunning as a serpent. As Catholics, we need to be awake and alert. Many views on the forum that are considered far right, were centerist view points even just 50-100 years ago. This is the result of subtle and insidious changes in our Catholic beliefs, catechism, and practices. If we don't speak up against issues, such as those in irregular unions or those in a Protestant faith receiving the Eucharist, then no one ever will, and in 50-100 years, it will be common practice. Other small changes will be allowed as well and before we know it, we'll have no faith left to defend.

May God bless and protect our beautiful Catholic Church.

 

I would like to suggest, as others have, that this thread be locked. I think we all need to process this, pray on it, and take it to our lady and come to our own conclusions. I also hope all pray for the forum. I think our lady wants us united. We will not agree on everything, but the least we can do is not be at each others throats, attacking each other and being disrespectful. We are supposed to be in our lady's living room, and it does not feel that way.

 

No I will not lock it as this is an ungoing serious concern. But I think I personally ahve said as much as needs saying as far as this is concerned.

There is one thing I would add but. be very ,very concerned if you see any tinkering with the mass , i nsuch a way that it is not the mass anymore, through changes to the Liturgy. I think this is Satan's End Game in all this.

Bye for now. I mean until we get hit with the next dollop of poison from Rome. On a plane or off a plane.

 

There is one little thing I would add , there is an Ancinet Greek word called, 'Kairos' (from which we derive, I believe the modern word, 'Crisis'.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kairos

Kairos

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the word "kairos". For the entrepreneurship organization, see Kairos Society. For the Christian retreat, see Kairos (retreat). For the Greek personification of opportunity, see Caerus. For other uses, see Kairos (disambiguation).



Kairos-Relief, copy of Lysippos, in Trogir (Croatia)



Kairos as portrayed in a 16th-century fresco by Francesco Salviati

Kairos (καιρός) is an ancient Greek word meaning the right or opportune moment (the 'supreme moment'). The ancient Greeks had two words for time: Greek: χρόνος (chronos) and kairos. While the former refers to chronological or sequential time, the latter signifies a period or season, a moment of indeterminate time in which an event of significance happens. What is happening when referring to kairos depends on who is using the word. While chronos is quantitative, kairos has a qualitative, permanent nature.[1] Kairos also means weather in modern Greek. The plural, καιροί (kairoi (ancient and modern Greek)) means the times.

And in Christian theology;

In Christian theology
In the New Testament, "kairos" means "the appointed time in the purpose of God", the time when God acts (e.g. Mark 1:15: the kairos is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand). "Kairos" (used 86 times in the New Testament) [11] refers to an opportune time, a "moment" or a "season" such as "harvest time",[12] whereas "chronos" (used 54 times) [13] refers to a specific amount of time, such as a day or an hour (e.g. Acts 13:18 and 27:9). Jesus makes a distinction in John 7:6 between "His" time and "His brothers'" time: paradoxically, it is "always" (Greek: παντοτε) his brothers' time. In the context, they can go to Jerusalem any time they wish.

In the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, before the Divine Liturgy begins, the Deacon exclaims to the Priest, «Καιρός του ποιήσα τω Κυρίω'», Kairos tou poiesai to Kyrio, " ("It is time [kairos] for the Lord to act"); indicating that the time of the Liturgy is an intersection with Eternity.

In The Interpretation of History, neo-orthodox Lutheran theologian Paul Tillich made prominent use of the term. For him, the kairoi are those crises in history (see Christian existentialism) which create an opportunity for, and indeed demand, an existential decision by the human subject - the coming of Christ being the prime example (compare Karl Barth's use of Geschichte as opposed to Historie). In the Kairos Document, an example of liberation theology in South Africa under apartheid, the term kairos is used to denote "the appointed time", "the crucial time" into which the document or text is spoken.

 

This is certainly a time of of Kairos for both ourselves as individuals and for the Church as a whole.

We can look back on our Spiritual Lives as a journey. But I think , personally the times of greatest growth in my own life in this journey have been in times of Kairos, of crisis. It was a though God picked up the whole can of beans shook them and put them back down again. Then I had to start all over again and put the pieces together. it is a bit like walking up a very, very steep mountain and seeing nothing in front of you but acres of grey and black rock but suddenly you gain the rise and there is this gorgeous panoramic view, and you cna see the sunrise. Suddenly at that moment all the hard word that you have done beofre has been made worthwhile and all the pieces falling apart are worth it becuse you can see them come together as a gorgeous whole.



Sunrise in the Mournes.