Divine Will revisited.

We've heard and understand the arguments, Stephen, and we don't agree on a basic level because you claim that you are stating the objective truth and we say that you are mistakenly equating your subjective interpretation of the documents (starting with Scripture itself) with objective truth.

Everybody knows that there's a fundamental disagreement here, and it wasn't the reason for my protest. Nobody is threatening you because of the intellectual content of the case you are presenting; that is perfectly legitimate practice. My question is very simple - will you or will you not retract the accusations against Fr Iannuzzi and Mark Mallett, or at least re-phrase them in a way that is not outside the bounds of what is acceptable in a public forum? If so, we can proceed with discussion of the theological issue itself. If not, as I said, I will formally request the removal of your post. If that occurs and you then wish to re-post it somewhere else on the internet, that is your absolute right and your business. But this is a forum with moderators and they decide what appears here.

 

Mark Mallett and Fr Ianuzzi claim there is a first resurrection of the body which Benedictus Deus (a dogma of the faith rules out). What exactly is your issue: either you accept dogma as it is presented or you dont . So did Benedict XII state there is a first bodily resurrection Peter yes or no?

 

Do I take it by your silence that you are saying 'no' to my request for a re-formulation of your accusations against Fr Iannuzzi and Mark?

 

Please just answer the question

 

Thank you for your reply Fatima. But I believe it will not feel as cut and dried as you believe from the GSWYL messages.
Gods victory has already been won, on Calvary. I believe our role is to choose which army we are in, and this has been the challenge since the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus. And will be so after the Warning/Illumination.

In the time to come after the Waning/Illumination, I suspect there will be a lot of 'experts' convincing the majority that it was a natural phenomenon, or mass hallucination, or some other get out inspired by satan to deceive as many as possible into ignoring the Warning/Illumination.

I feel there will be a deadly conflict between the believers, the deniers with the confused who won't know what to do; maybe even being hijacked by the deniers to use against the believers. We will have our work cut out. I feel this is what will happen in the time after the Rescue (eye of the Storm) Charlie J speaks about. And after the eye of the (same) Storm Mark Mallet speaks about.

 

Not on the spur of the moment, because I would need to study the context both of Benedictus Deus and of Mark's and Fr Iannuzzi's writing on the issue. This kind of attempt to trap posters into on-the-spot responses I consider to be further intimidation that is not compatible with forum etiquette.

For the last time (and I mean the last), will you or will you not revise the tone of your accusations against Mark and Fr Iannuzzi as they stand?

 

Peter,
I wouldnt want to make a spur of the moment decision, I would need to study the context of your accusation againts me. Your intimidation is a little silly dont you think?

 

I have banned Stephen from the forum, I will clean up his offending posts a little later.

 

At this point I would like to shift the discussion on to some concrete examination of source material, to see if we can make any progress this way. I will focus on two sources which, when examined in detail, point very much in the same direction. The first is Don Stefano Gobbi's much-discussed 'Blue Book', the second the messages from the officially-approved 1994-1998 phase of the Itapiranga apparitions to Edson Glauber and his mother Maria do Carmo.

Let me turn first to Fr Gobbi, looking specifically at the question of what the references to the 'Second Coming', looking at them on the grounds of textual analysis alone. My sense is that we first need to distinguish which questions can and cannot be cleared up this way;

- It obviously cannot be established just by looking at the text whether the 'Blue Book' is the result of supernatural inspiration, private meditation or a combination of the two (indeed this question is one which is virtually impossible to answer by any method, given that by his own admission the messages were not received in an ecstasy/altered state of consciousness that would be amenable to neuro-physiological testing, nor to my knowledge was their reception acccompanied by scientifically inexplicable phenomena).

- What can however be demonstrated is that a) the interpretation given to the 'Blue Book''s eschatology by Fr Gobbi himself and the MMP leadership is consistent with the plain sense of the text and that b) this eschatology was not considered heterodox by the representatives of the Magisterium who conferred several Imprimaturs on the material. This is critically important because it shows - conclusively IMHO - that it is a legitimate theological option (even if it may still be a minority opinion) to argue that the 'Second Coming' is not synonymous with the Last Judgment at the end of time but refers to a dramatic manifestation of Christ's glory preceding the Era of Peace. This differentiation between the Second Coming and Last Judgement may not be pleasing to supporters of an Augustinian eschatological model, but it is certainly not in conflict with Scripture (Rev. chapters 19 and 20).


The clearest evidence of this is a 1978 message to which Fr Gobbi himself referred in his 1996 talk 'The Triumph, The Second Coming and the Eucharistic Reign' (http://www.mmp-usa.net/arc_triumph.html) which differentiates unequivocally between Christ's 'the return of Jesus in glory' (i.e. the second coming) and 'his final coming for the last judgement, the hour of which is still hidden in the secrets of the Father'. His second coming, according to this message, will certainly be a judgement on the enemies of Christ , it will however not signify the end of the planet but rather the establishment of Christ's kingdom.

____________________________________________________________
Fr Stefano Gobbi, 'To the priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons'

166. His second coming

December 24, 1978

The Holy Night

"My beloved sons, I am gathering you here with Me, close to the poor manger, waiting to place in it my new-born Child.

This is the Holy Night. You are spending it in prayer and recollection. You are spending it with Me.

In this night, darkness covers everything, and silence has now dimmed every sound, when suddenly a new light pours forth from Heaven and the festive voices of Angels resound along the deserted roadways of the world.

The desert of the world opens to receive its God who is born of Me in his human life.

His second coming, beloved sons, will be like the first. As was his birth on this night, so also will be the return of Jesus in glory, before his final coming for the last judgement, the hour of which is still hidden in the secrets of the Father.

The world will be completely covered in the darkness of the denial of God, of its obstinate rejection of Him and of

rebellion against his Law of love. The coldness of hatred will still cause the roadways of this world to be deserted. Almost no one will be ready to receive Him.

The great ones will not even remember Him, the rich will close their doors on Him, while his own will be too busy with seeking and affirming themselves...

'When the Son of Man comes, will He stiII find faith on the earth?' He will come suddenly and the world will not be ready for his coming. He will come for a judgement for which man will find himself unprepared. He will come to establish his Kingdom in the world, after having defeated and annihilated his enemies.

Even in this second coming, the Son will come to you through his Mother. As the Word of the Father made use of my virginal womb to come to you, so also will Jesus make use of my Immaculate Heart to come and reign in your midst.

This is the hour of my Immaculate Heart, because the coming of Jesus' glorious Reign of love is now in preparation.

Beloved sons, just as I did, you too must prepare yourselves to receive Him!

This Holy Night is a sign and a grace for you. I am gathering you together close to his poor manger to fill the vast emptiness which humanity has made for Him. (...)"

[Emphasis PB]

 

(Fr Gobbi cnt'd)

In a message received on December 24, 1982, the words 'second coming into your midst in glory' occur in relation to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart and Christ's 'glorious Reign of Love and of Peace'

"Just as the Word of the Father made use of my humble assent for his first coming into your midst, in the frailness of human nature, so now does my Son Jesus make use of my prophetic announcement to prepare his second coming into your midst in glory.
Do not be afraid, O children so exposed to dangers. With the triumph of my Immaculate Heart, Jesus will manifest himself to you in his glorious Reign of Love and of Peace!"

Message 316 (December 1, 1985) then speaks of the 'times of your second advent' and the 'radiant dawn of a second Pentecost'

Live with Me through these times of your second advent.
As I was the virgin Mother of the first coming of Jesus, so today I am the glorious Mother of His second coming.
Live in this expectation and you will be blessed. Blessed in the midst of trials and sufferings of every kind, because you have the certainty that the time of the present tribulation is preparing the time of the glorious return of my Son Jesus.
Blessed in the midst of misunderstandings and persecutions, because your names are written in My Immaculate Heart and because you are kept safe in My secure and motherly refuge.
Blessed too if you Live in a Church which is darkened, wounded and divided, because this Her hour of agony is preparing for Her the radiant dawn of a second Pentecost.
Live in My Immaculate Heart, blessed in the expectation of the blessed hope and of the glorious coming of my Son Jesus.

In Message 318, we find a reference to Christ's 'second coming' 'upon the clouds of heaven to establish His Reign in glory'.

318. A great silence
December 24, 1985
Dong (Como)
Holy Night
[...] A great silence enveloped the accomplishment of this divine mystery. While silence wrapped everything, in the middle of the night, the eternal Word of the Father came down as" a dew upon the world, called to welcome its divine bud.
And into this great silence, the heavenly voices of the Angels opening up the hearts of shepherds, who were able to understand that which is hidden to great ones.
And so it must be for every meeting with the Word Who becomes flesh in the life of each one of you.
Thus it must be for your daily meeting with My Son Jesus.
Thus it must be for the Christmas which you are called upon to live every day, welcoming the Lord Who saves you and leads you to peace, with love in your hearts and souls.
Thus too it must be for His second coming, when He will return in the splendour of His divinity and will come upon the clouds of heaven to establish His Reign in glory.
A great silence is needed once more today, in order to
understand the mysterious Plan of God and to be able to read the signs of the times which you are living through, which announce His imminent return to you.
Open up your hearts to humility, simplicity, the frankness of little ones.
Persevere in prayer and in trust.
Each day, with your Heavenly Mother, live your perennial Christmas, which is already becoming perpetuated in time, for the joy and salvation of all men."

 

Peter, thank you for this lovely post. It contains in it pretty much how I feel about the times we are living.

I feel that at the Rescue Charlie J speaks of, and the times Mark M speaks of, all Father Gobbi's messages fall in place. No matter what critics say of the timing.

It has been said that the Reign of Jesus will first be lived in the hearts of the believers, like a spiritual awakening to the reality of Jesus Eucharistic presence.

The Rescue Charlie speaks of and he also calls the Triumph of Immaculate Heart of Mary, agrees with Jesus returning spiritually to Reign in our Hearts through His Blessed Mother at the Rescue.

There is so much hope in this promise. The challenges that may follow would be approached very differently from hearts Spiritually enlightened. Because I don't think it will be all plain sailing in the near future. But by the grace of God, we will be strengthened by the light of Holy Spirit.

 

This is one of the most enlightening and revealing messages contained in the Blue Book of Fr. Gobbi messages.

 

We can see from my above post that the Church clearly teaches that there will only be two resurrections. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul during the particular judgment, which takes place immediately upon death, and the resurrection of the flesh, which will only occur during the Last Judgment at the end of the world, after the Second Coming of Christ. Those who hold to the coming of a future Millennium (millennialists) are obliged to believe in a resurrection of the just at the start of this Millennium. This would mean that there would be a bodily resurrection of the saints before the General Resurrection from the dead, and that the saints whose immortal souls that are already enjoying the beatific vision after the particular judgment will be reunited to their bodies in an imperfect material world away from the presence of the Face of God. This directly contravenes the Dogmatic Constitution Benedictus Deus:

"By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essense with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence. Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.

Such a vision and enjoyment of the divine essence do away with the acts of faith and hope in these souls, inasmuch as faith and hope are properly theological virtues. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever.

(On hell and the general judgment)

Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies "before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account of their personal deeds, "so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body" (2 Cor. 5.10).

Also I'll cite Lumen Gentium as well for good measure, which shows that the resurrection of the just will only occur at the end of the world, not at some intermediate stage:

"For before we reign with Christ in glory, all of us will be made manifest "before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil" and at the end of the world "they who have done good shall come forth unto resurrection of life; but those who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment". (Lumen Gentium 48)

 

17 signs of the lack of humility:

http://www.fatherpeffley.org/docs/Humility.pdf

 

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ON THE FAILURE OF KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY

Sext reading for 5-18-16
Short Reading
1 Corinthians 13:8-9,13

Love does not come to an end. But if there are gifts of prophecy, the time will come when they must fail; or the gift of languages, it will not continue for ever; and knowledge – for this, too, the time will come when it must fail. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophesying is imperfect. In short, there are three things that last: faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love.

Knowledge must fail before Love comes to its fullness. Think of the moment when the Body of Christ is put on our tongue. Pure Love. Our knowledge is of no avail. Yes, we must strive to increase in wisdom and knowledge of Him who is Love. We gain through study of the Scriptures, the Sacraments, the Magisterium and each other. We strive to form our conciences so that we make decisions that reflect God's will with Love. Why then must knowledge fail before Love comes in its fullness?
A wise Priest once told me that our Faith is a mystery to be entered into and not a problem to be solved. Solving a problem such as if there will be an intermediate coming of Christ (before His final coming at the end of time), can't be known for sure (even though I personally believe Charlie J. and Mark M. are very credible), and here is why. We know that our Faith is our shield and our battle armor. The sword we hold is wielded by the armor of our faith (we are just an instrument) and it is the Word of God Himself. The edge He uses now is His blade of Mercy but the blade of Justice is always part of the same sword. As long as we are inside this suit of armor which is our Catholic Faith, the enemy (the created one), can not touch us because it is our Christ who fights for us. We are warned not to step out of our armor for a second because our enemy is prowling like a lion waiting to devour us. In our Faith we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ. The Gifts that we we humbly ask for and receive are due to no merit of our own because we (on our own) deserve none of them. They all were paid for by Christ and only in Him can we realize our part of them. Wisdom and Knowledge (Gifts of the Spirit), can only be ours inside the context of the rest of our Catholic Faith and they will only carry us so far in our journey towards a spiritual union with our Christ. The final renunciation to be made for us to be truly "Poor in Spirit" is to give God back the only thing we really own. These are the gifts that He has given us because we were part of His Son's Mystical Body. These "Gifts of the Spirit" must be laid down at the foot of the Cross as we have the high privilege to join Jesus on that tree which He gave everything! It was not Christ's knowledge and wisdom that saved us, it was His willingness to give up His knowlege and wisdom (and everything else) that destroyed death and allows all who die with Him so that we might rise with Him to His (and our) Father. Here then is the seeming dichotomy. To truly gain the Holy Spirit (the Love between the Father and the Son) and His gifts, we have to first give up these very gifts at the foot of the Cross. Knowledge must fail before ultimate knowledge (the beatific vision) and Love prevail.
If Love (Christ) is to visit us soon (Warning, Illumination of Concience), we had better expect knowledge to fail us. We need to use prophecy as a guide and be watchful of the signs as Jesus commanded us, but only as far as it takes for us to abide in Christ. Paraphrasing Mark Mallett, he said a while back that to abide in Christ was prayer manifesting fidelity to the Father's Will with love. In other words, we strive to become a living prayer to our Father (through Christ), just as Jesus did in all that he accomplished. His final prayer before He brought us all Home, was utterly devoid of knowledge and in fact was one of utter abandonment. We should expect nothing less if we are part of His Mystical Body because after we give up all, the spear that was to be the created one's final blow of humiliation, turned out to be the instrument that released the Divine Blood and Water that signaled the satan's defeat and humanities reunion with our Father.
This is the Year of Divine Mercy. Today's Sext reading tells us that knowledge will fail and this leads to what? - the spear that releases the Divine Mercy! The sign of Jonah is itself a sign.
Peace Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Ed
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I never post but have one comment to make.
I am grateful to Stephen for raising some very important questions in this thread.
There are forum members who constantly attack Pope Francis and they get a warning sometimes but are free to continue with their attacks against The Pope. Stephen questioned intentions of Father Lanuzzi and Mark Mallett and was banned and his 'offensive posts' will be removed.
We can continue to read offensive posts against the Holy Father though. Doesn't sound right.

 

Wow!! This list is humbling to me, I've read where pride/lack of humility is actually our greatest sin.

Question I have about pride; is pride in our children or discussing their accomplishments fall into this lack of humility? I've asked St. Joseph to pray for me a lot regarding this. I have contemplated this, thinking that there had to be moments of pride being the foster parent of Jesus? And was this a sin?

 

Thank you Stephen for all your hard work on this thread. It has been appreciated by many.

 

This is a wonderful code of conduct and spiritual guide, thank you G.