Sign after sign after sign...

Are you saying, then, that the Church has been wrong to deny the Eucharist to Lutherans for the past 500 years - that all those Popes, Bishops and Priests were wrong? Other than not pinning their statements on the doors of our churches or imposing their beliefs on Catholics, how are today's Lutherans different? Has their attitude to divorce, artificial contraception and homosexual relationships made them more "worthy" than their antecedents? No priest can know the heart of any communicant, but he might be able to make a good stab at it by paying attention to the communicant's public statements.

I'm all for Christian unity, but not at any price. Here's my nightmare should this ecumenism proceed at too fast a pace:

A female bishop con-celebrating Mass with her wife and administering the "Eucharist" to Catholics - an abomination of desolation. Before anyone accuses me of hysteria, please think long and hard about where inter-Communion with the Lutherans could lead us. Would you be happy with a woman acting in persona Christi? In such a case, who would be the Bridegroom and who the Bride?

I don't believe that the Holy Father intends to water down the faith in the name of unity, and I don't like the way his character is assassinated at every opportunity. At the same time, I have niggling worries that some time in the future he will be used as an example to support arguments that do in fact water down the faith and there won't be enough Bishops or faithful to shout stop because they will be afraid of appearing harsh or judgemental.

 

Excuse me for saying this, but here I'm going to have to break with habit and be a little more direct than usual. Having known the Taizé Community for thirty years and been alongside Brother Roger on many occasions, to see him compared with Judas hurts profoundly and I can't let it pass without comment.

Firstly, Roger Schütz was not talking out of 'political correctness': he had already lived in radical simplicity for long periods during his early years in Taizé, especially right at the outset when he was completely alone (except for a couple of goats for milk and cheese) in a all-but-deserted village of 7 houses with no running water. Simplicity was fundamental to Frère Roger's whole life, vocation and witness, rooted in a transformational encounter with the Living Christ, not in any socio-political theory.

Secondly, it's important to consider the context. The fact that this dialogue with St John XXIII (whom Frère Roger regarded as one of the biggest influences on his life) took place at all is a miracle that only God could have brought about. How else do you explain the fact that someone from a strict Swiss Reformed (i.e. Calvinist, not Lutheran) background should have come to embrace - at the cost of alienation from his own community - what St John Bosco called the 'three whitenesses', the three distinguishing marks of the Catholic faith left by the Lord himself - the Real Eucharistic Presence, the Papacy and the Mother of God (about whom he co-authored a book with Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta)? Besides founding what has turned out to be one of the largest monasteries in Europe, a revived Cluny, with a ministry to millions?

Thirdly, my personal memories of Frère Roger are of a man of childlike transparency and a palpable holiness. I vividly remember one meeting with him in 1999 with a group of Americans from Paris when the Brothers of Taizé invited us to his room. For some reason he was late and they didn't know his whereabouts, and were beginning to get a little anxious, when suddenly he walked in. At the sight of this frail old man - something like a starets in the Russian Orthodox tradition - the room spontaneously burst into tears without his saying anything, including people who knew next to nothing about Frère Roger. It's difficult to describe something like this unless you actually experience it, but that kind of presence is something that can't be faked. I call it sanctification.

 

Thanks for a beautiful reflection Peter. It brings a face to the often emotionally charged questions around "worthy" reception of Communion. I read and actually saw a photo that appears to show future Pope Benedict giving Holy Communion to Brother Roger at John Paul II's funeral Mass. I would love to get your perspective on this? It's interesting to me that while he was still formally a Protestant, Cardinal Ratzinger, I guess deemed him in the proper state to receive? Thanks again Peter for sharing your remembrance of what sounds like a very holy and humble soul.

 

Something's been on my heart through this discussion:

When the fullness of the storm hits, and we find ourselves huddled together with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions, and a priest shows up; will some among us object to the reception of the Eucharist by protestants who hunger and thirst for Him? Will some among us demand completion of a 9 month RCIA program?

Ordinary time is over. This is NOT a test.

 

And if the priest who shows up is Protestant, will your hunger and thirst be satisfied by the Eucharist he or she offers you?

 

One of the reasons the storm hits is because of sacrilege.
And you want to continue with it during the storm?


“The same will occur with Holy Communion. Oh, how it hurts me to tell you that there will be many and enormous public and hidden sacrileges!

 

I can only hope it will and that the One True Jesus Christ in an infinite act of Mercy and charity will make himself fully and completely present, body, soul, and divinity. It truly is what I would expect from a God who already sacrificed for me.

 

Dolours, I would not be s quick to disdain and dismiss Protestants or any People of Faith. If there is, in fact, a Storm upon us and it is from God as a Wake-Up call to Humanity ... I suspect that a major reason for the unpleasantness would be the failure of The Catholic Church to hold firm on it's Teachings & Traditions and the failure of it's Hierarchy to avoid all the, Laity confusing & demoralizing, Scandals of the past 50 years! I'll Say Again! I believe that ALL of us, soon, will find ourselves in "Foxhole/Lifeboats" filled, if we are fortunate, with People of Faith from many backgrounds and it will be a matter of Work-Together to survive .... or NOT!!

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

I would not like to be the one facing Our Lord on judgement day saying I refused anyone the Eucharist who wished to receive it because I thought they were not worthy. I would not want that on my conscience! It is maybe just as well that I only have to worry about my own worthiness to receive.
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

 

I'm not dismissing or disdaining any people of faith. I'm merely saying that being in a foxhole doesn't turn bread and wine into the Eucharist unless it has been confected by a properly ordained priest.

Unlike some here, I wouldn't discount Muslims being in the foxhole for they, too, are people of faith. We might be surprised at who is sharing the foxhole and who is hunting us down.

 

I don't understand what you're saying. Do you mean that your wishful thinking would turn bread into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus?

 

It has nothing to do with me or wishful thinking. It would a miracle and an act of God to choose to present Himself under the species of bread and wine. The presupposition to this discussion is we are in "end times". So please don't use my words to say that right now a Protestant minister has the God given power to transubstantiation. They don't. What happens in the future- I don't know. As I said I can only HOPE that somehow God will make Himself present and feed us. He did this for this fir the Israelites in the desert and if we are soon to be in the "desert" of the Storm, should we not expect to be spiritually fed? I hope that clarifies it for you. Peace.

 

Last I heard!? ..... it is God who is the "Final Authority" on the consecration of Priests?

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

Yes, I heard that too. Last I heard, God gave that authority to the Church. If we're in the bunkers next week, next month or next year, God is unlikely to have passed that authority to Protestants. Now, if we're talking about the end times, after prophesies such as the war of Gog/Magog have been fulfilled, we could be talking about something completely different where there will be only one Church. As things stand right now, anybody could be in the bunker.

Incidentally, we won't get to decide who receives communion from a Catholic priest. That will be the priest's call, and he will be answering to God for his decision.

 

Mea culpa. I reacted more to his criticism of the opulence of the Vatican, which is a standard liberal trope ("why not sell all the art and architecture of the Church and give it to the poor and so on) which sets off my rant tendency all too easily. I knew very little of this man and allowed myself to be blinded by my preconceived notions and, quite frankly, a profound distrust of ecumenism. Unfortunately, in my ignorance I fired both barrels at a holy man who is obviously a perfect example of a good Protestant and a genuine ecumenist. I unreservedly withdraw my comments as directed towards him, notwithstanding that they are perfectly applicable for direction towards other more deserving targets.

I must find out more about this man. Thank you for informing me and please forgive my clumsy comment.

 

cf Canon Law 915:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_915

'Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.[1]'

The corresponding canon in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, which binds members of the Eastern Catholic Churches, reads:

The publicly unworthy are to be kept from the reception of the Divine Eucharist[2][3]

This Practise of refusing the Eucharist to the unworthy has been carried on since the Earliest times in the Church, as the Church Fathers testify:

'Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to "those who hold heterodox opinions," that "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (6:2, 7:1).


Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1–20).


Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. "I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence" (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).


Cyril of Jerusalem, in a catechetical lecture presented in the mid-300s, said, "Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy
of the body and blood of Christ" (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9).


In a fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: "When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).'

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist

 

There was a rumour about Br Roger that he had converted and become a secret Catholic years before his death. I have no idea if it was true.

There was something mysterious and Christ- like about his death:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4158886.stm

Certainly if the words of Jesus are to be applied, 'By their fruits ye shall know them', he would at once be taken as one of Gods saints.

If anyone has never seen Taize in action they should have a look at it on utube, it is very,very remarkable:

 

Proselytism is often seen as talking at someone rather than talking to or with someone. I find it very hard to believe that those who have once again jumped down the throat of Pope Francis do not know this. We are not Jehova's witnesses nor do we employ their modus operandi. There are many ways to attract prospects for the Faith. Pope Francis was 100% correct. Talking at them is not one of them. Neither is simply spouting endless scripture or dogma. More is needed. The Catholic message cannot be carried if it is not lived. I have never met anyone who has been convinced and converted except by aspiring to a quality of The Catholic Faith in the lives of others that has attracted them. It is how conversion is offered to others that is important. Sure, the right words are important but timing is vital and example is essential. We reciprocate their wish to know us better with our interest in them and our concern for them. We get to know them. We listen, not with any desire to convert to their faith but with the intention of meeting their needs and what they need to enjoy our faith. As Pope Francis says, they have to see in us something they want. In Jesus people saw the Truth as much as heard the Truth. As our Pope said they have to be attracted to the faith. Sometimes I feel this forum should have a suffix to its title (+BOV). The poison in our vipers continues to be in endless supply. I have watched the brood spit and strike and scurry away. The vipers whom Jesus addressed may have been learnèd but were not wise. I have no wish or need to condemn those who misrepresent and attack Our Holy Father here. They have condemned themselves out of their own mouths. I have seen and felt the sickness here for a long time. Why do I stay? I feel a duty to do what I can to try to heal the wounds inflicted on Our Holy Father in which he is one with the wounds of Christ on the Cross. I am after all a health care provider by profession. Sometimes I watch the TV evangelicals and I think "Yep, wonderful thoughts and words but do you have the Bread of Life to feed your sheep? Do you have the authority of Jesus bestowed on Peter to interpret his word? Do you have the words of Eternal life spoken by Jesus as understood by the One True Apostolic Church?" If the answer is no then they have missed the boat. In this year of Mercy I want to catch at least one fish for Jesus. I must pray how best to be attractive for that fish to enter the net. And of course it will be catch, tag and release. Tagged with the mark of Faith and released into the See of Peter that leads to new and eternal life. I think vipers can swim so there may even be hope for them if they repent.

 

The true poison of vipers is a lack of Charity , Joe. Your post fairly hisses with it. It's a wonder your keyboard didn't explode when you were typing that.

You bring new light to the term, 'Hissy fit'.

 

It is "nice" that we, now, can still discuss the finer points of Canon Law and This-n-That but I fear that when we are in that "Foxhole/Lifeboat" and down to our last can of Pork-n-Beans or 20 rounds of ammo .... Somehow ... I'm thinking that the finer points of Canon Law or anything else will be the last thing on our minds. Just Pray ... & "Hard" ... that my grim view of events to come ... Don't! .... but current events and 6,000 years of recorded human history argue otherwise

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!! ......... and Be With Us in The Storm!!