You "think" something is true because of a single credible report that reinforces your personal biases . Oh dear .
I didnt actually say that BH. So there is no need to get on your high horse. I just added that report because it is a fact.The reason I think it was apparent to all is because that was the point of the miacle. ''So that all will believe'' were the words used by the Virgin.
Mac you are amongst friends, there's really no need for a hot defensive response! I am in a friendly (and hopefully recognisably mildly teasing) manner suggesting that your statement in the clip ("perfectly apparent to all, the sun appeared to transform... ") is not well supported by other credible testimony available when I researched these same things some years ago. Most yes, all no. If you are wanting to convince the undecided by credible facts then as a Christian truth-seeker would you not want to do some more research on this point I am politely drawing to your attention. (Or correct what may actually be a small exaggeration.) If you cannot find the reports at the time that I refer to (ie it was reported that some believers who wanted to see did not, even though they stood right next to some non-believers who did see) let me know and I will see if I can find them again myself. (As is usually the case, credible contradictory material is not easily discovered because pious Catholic writers tend to cherry pick and over-simplify what actually happened and that is what we grow up with if we don't actively "look over the fence"). If you feel this sort of research is not needed I think you may be limiting the ultimate impact of your clip to the already converted ... which I believe may not really be your aim if "the facts" are what you are wanting to communicate here. My wife (a non-Christian from a Buddhist cultural background), for reasons I am at a complete loss to understand with such a "heathen", just loves coming with me to approved Catholic Marian shrines (esp Fatima) because she literally feels a bit of "heaven" is there in the atmosphere, the attitude of the people, the communal worship and the singing, the evening candle processions with her statue. We stayed at Fatima 6 days and she spent as much time as she could learning about the miracle. She herself has seen such a phenomenon in her home country as a teenager when climbing a mountain with friends (they all saw it). She never forgot, this is perhaps also why she is attracted to Fatima. I recall she described the phenomenon to me even before I told her about Fatima, and her description about the silvery colour, being able to look directly at the sun, it moving about and even seeming to dive to the earth etc, is exactly the same as the reports from 1917. (Though she did not see the rainbow colours). It lasted a few minutes. For me the "miracle" of Fatima is more about the accurate time and place prophecy that something spectacular would happen - not the "dancing of the sun" itself. Her next bucket-list trip request is Lourdes...oh dear, back to paid employment so I can keep her in the manner she is accustomed to I suppose .
I cant find anything Bh . But I didnt try that hard . I think I remember a blind man was there. He probably didnt see much ,although he was cured. Other than that I will take advice from the likes of Fr Hadron... ''When the phenomenon occurred in October, it was witnessed by thousands of people, friendly and unfriendly, simple believers and professed skeptics, those disposed to believe Our Lady’s message and others who were openly hostile to what the Blessed Virgin was reported to have said. In God’s providence the hostility of the skeptics was necessary to give rational grounds for believing what the children said the beautiful Lady was telling them. All the reports of those who witnessed the spectacle of the sun testify to their stupefaction at what they saw. No one, not even the most hardened agnostic, doubted that what he saw was a prodigy. This was necessary to provide the rational foundation for accepting, on faith, the Marian message of Fatima because of the solar event which everybody had to accept, as a fact, perceived by the senses.''http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Miracles/Miracles_008.htm
How hard do you think it should be for Christians (let alone unbelievers) to find "the facts", the truth Mac? Is religious certainty the same as the certainty of the senses? Is religious certainty objective like science... Is historical certainty objective like science... Should religious or historical conclusions be the same for everyone if they were in the same position to see things as us? And if other people differ from us in their conclusions when faced with the same reports ... is it because they are in bad faith or is it because reported "facts" (we weren't there) are not always as harmonious as we first thought so opinions may validly differ. Can absolute certainty be found in "facts" if we were not actually there but only rely on the 2nd or 3rd hand reports of "the facts" experienced by others ... which means we are at the mercy of both the insights and limitations of the "authority" who passes those reports on to us. How does an "authority" add any extra real certainty to this handing on of "facts" if they themselves were not there and are 2nd or 3rd hand recipients themselves? If the primary source documents of something in the past are available to us, if we but took the effort to seek them out, why would we not do that instead of somewhat blindly treading the well worn path told us by other "authorities" who weren't there either...especially if sincere friends advise us the "official line" is not as easily found in the source documents as our childhood trust would want us to believe. Why are we so willing to allow "authorities" or "the group" to tell us what is "factually true" and what is not without first investigating/checking a wide range of primary sources directly ourselves if they are available. Arguments from authority, as Aquinas noted, are valid ones yet they are the weakest of arguments when it comes to judging the certainty of "facts." Mac I don't see any easy answers to the above questions myself. They do become much more personally acute when we choose to teach others. The Narrow Gate "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
I actually agree with you BH. If you can find any primary sources ,please share. I of course are far more interested in the'' Now''..The missing text and the eventual consecration of Russia. Where do you stand on these issues?
That's a tough one. At least with Fatima primary sources show the vast majority clearly saw the dance of the sun. But when it comes to this its hard to know what even the agreed "facts" are. Personally I find the over focus on this misplaced. Even bordering on obsessive/compulsive pedanticism like a guy who I used to regularly pick up in my taxi who would wipe the door handle every time. Mechanistic, ritualistic, even superstitious. I don't think noble, wise, understanding heavenly creatures hinge the fate of the world on whether all t's are crossed and i's dotted in their commands. That isn't the chacter of the Jesus or Mary I have come to know. Obviously experiences may vary!
Experiences may vary? Yeah , it sure did vary for the whole human race when Adam took a bite from the forbidden fruit.
Mac I myself do not think the Fall must be literally interpreted as the result of a single bite from a single fig. Gn 3:21 And the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
I haven't disagreed with you. I am only clarifying a point for readers that the fall of man is literal event. It happened.
From the prophecy given to Luz de Maria July 12, 2015. Is she referring the Consecration of Russia (in red)? SOCIETY HAS EVOLVED, BUT THAT EVOLUTION BRINGS ABOUT THE GREAT SPIRITUAL REVOLUTION OF WHICH I HAVE WARNED YOU IN ALL MY APPARITIONS; THIS IS THE REBELLION OF MAN AGAINST GOD. As he moves away from My Son, man becomes associated with evil and, when this happens, the catastrophe for man is imminent. I call you to prayer to attenuate all I have revealed, but you will not be able to eliminate the events I have announced, because those who were expected to give a positive response to stop the events did not give it in the way I warned them, the way the Divine Will wanted. THE BAD BEHAVIOR OF MAN’S ACTS AND WORKS, TOGETHER WITH THE DISOBEDIENCE OF THE DIVINE WILL, ATTRACT TOWARDS HUMANITY A WAVE OF UNSTOPPABLE CALAMITIES OF ALL KINDS. Man despises God and confronts God and tells Him he doesn’t love Him.
I could agree about t's crossed and i's dotted BH . But then we arent dealing with that . Are we? When a simple command to consecrate Russia in union with all the Bishops of the world is apparently done without mentioning Russia and without the Bishops of the world , you want to relegate these main instructions to i's and t's?
Sister Lucia was consistent in her testimony that the consecration Our Lady requested was for that of Russia, not the world. Without this consecration, Russia will not be converted and the world will not have peace. This fact must be stressed in modern times when wars and rumors of war are continually on the rise, and when the potential devastation caused by today’s powerful weapons of warfare far exceeds anything ever experienced in history. Thus it is useful to review Sister Lucia’s consistent testimony regarding Our Lady’s request that the Pope, in union with all the bishops of the world, consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart. The request for the Consecration of Russia goes back to the very beginning of Our Lady’s visitations at Fatima. On July 13, 1917, at Fatima, on the same day She had given the children the vision of Hell, Our Lady promised to return to ask for the Consecration of Russia. True to Her word, the Virgin appeared again to Lucia on June 13, 1929 in Tuy, Spain. Lucia, now a Dorothean nun named Sister Lucia (she would not become a Carmelite until 1948), was praying in the convent chapel during the Holy Hour of Adoration and Reparation. The request for the Consecration of Russia was accompanied by a most unique vision of the Blessed Trinity. Sister Lucia writes: “I had requested and obtained permission from my superiors and confessor to make the Holy Hour from 11:00 pm until midnight from Thursday to Friday. Being alone one night, I knelt down before the Communion rail in the middle of the chapel to say the prayers of the Angel, lying prostrate. Feeling tired, I got up and knelt, and continued to say them with my arms in the form of a cross. The only light came from the sanctuary lamp. “Suddenly a supernatural light illumined the whole chapel and on the altar appeared a cross of light which reached to the ceiling. In a brighter part could be seen, on the upper part of the Cross, the face of a Man and His body to the waist. On His breast was an equally luminous Dove, and nailed to the Cross, the body of another Man. “A little below the waist, suspended in mid-air, was to be seen a Chalice and a large Host onto which fell some drops of Blood from the face of the Crucified and from a wound on His breast. These drops ran down over the Host and fell into the Chalice. Under the right arm of the Cross was Our Lady [Our Lady of Fatima with Her Immaculate Heart in Her hand] … Under the left arm (of the Cross), some big letters, as if it were crystal-clear water running down over the altar, formed these words: ‘Grace and Mercy’.”
Any consequences for not following the instructions of Our Lady? Exactly? Yes of course there is . And this is shown in the frustrated apparition on Aug 13 1917. The children were kidnapped and could not make the meeting . Our Lady still showed up as scheduled . And on the 19th told the children the miracle of the Sun would be less spectacular . Always consequences for not following instructions Im afraid BH. On the 13th of August, the day chosen by Our Lady to appear at the Cova da Iria, the district Administrator went to Aljustrel, and while pretending to give the children a ride to the Cova where Our Lady was waiting for them, he took them in the opposite direction, he kidnapped them and took them to Vila Nova de Ourem. There they were detained in the town hall, then at the home of the Administrator and finally in the prison. He spared neither promises nor threats to extract the Secret from them, even to the point of threatening to boil them in oil. Seeing he was getting nowhere with his promises and threats the Administrator released the three little children on the 15th of August back in Fatima. Meanwhile on August 13th let us listen to one of the witnesses: «Around the holm-oak, we prayed, we sang hymns of the Church. But the little ones were late in coming, and everyone began to get impatient. Thereupon, someone came from Fatima saying that the Administrator had taken the children away. «There arose then a disturbance, and I do not know what would have happened if, suddenly, a clap of thunder had not made itself heard. The clap of thunder was more or less similar to that of the preceding time. «At the clap of thunder there followed lightning, and at once we began to notice a small cloud, very pretty, white in color, very light, which hovered some moments over the holm-oak, then rose towards the sky, and disappeared in the atmosphere23. «While looking around us, we observed a strange thing, which we had already seen the previous time, and which we were going to see again in the future. The faces of the people had all the colors of the rainbow: pink, red, blue ... The trees did not appear to have branches and leaves but only flowers; everything seemed laden with flowers, and every leaf appeared to be a flower. The ground was covered with squares of different colors. Clothes were also of every color of the rainbow. The two lanterns attached to the arch appeared to be made of gold.24» Briefly, everything had happened outwardly as if the apparition had taken place. Our Lady, it was obvious, had not missed the rendezvous. And She had manifested Her presence by imposing signs, witnessed by most of the pilgrims present that day. Manuel Gonçalves, from the hamlet of Montelo, would be able to testify to Canon Formigao on October 11: «There were many extraordinary signs. In August, almost all those who were there saw . August 19...I want you to continue going to the Cova da Iria on the 13th, that you continue praying the Rosary every day. On the last month, I will perform a miracle so that all may believe. If they had not taken you to the city30, the miracle would have been greater. Saint Joseph will come with the Child Jesus, to give peace to the world. Our Lord will come to bless the people. Our Lady of the Rosary and Our Lady of Sorrows will come also
Isn't this where we get into the nitpicking t's and i's. Were there no bishops at all present? Could they be united (by intent or by offering their own mass on the same day) without actually having to physically con-celebrate with the Pope? If they had to concelebrate how many would be needed - every single one, 2/3 majority, 51% majority, 40,30,20 or 10%? (Remember Abraham pleading the Lord for 50/40/30/20/10 just men to save Sodom). And the same for verbally announcing the consecration - how explicit does it have to be if everybody understands what was being done (or would understand later on) anyway and there were reasonable political reasons for being somewhat indirect? Mary said the Fatima miracle would occur at midday - was she cheating by being a bit "weird" and meaning "solar position" (ie the sun's zenith) - rather than "solar time" which she would know is what everybody would understand. For me Jesus and Mary are not avatars of our, often, unreasonable and overly authoritain fathers as remembered from childhood. Nor are they like strict English Lawmakers/Courts on which we might model our understanding of "commands". (I recall my Italian theology professors repeatedly telling us that continentals (both civil and religious) have very strict laws but apply them far more leniantly than the British at home or in their colonies). Nor are they mechanical robots that see things in black and white, all or nothing conditions like The Terminator. Nor are they power-trippers needing every detail be obeyed perfectly regardless of conditions before we get our deserts. It took me a long time to realise these simple Christian truths - I was unfortunately brought up the oldest son of a very demanding and high ranking Police Officer who took a long time to realise what normal parenting is about.
Lots wife would beg to differ. As would Moses. I have clearly shown you in post398 that there are consequences.And it wasn't even the childrens fault. Will you accept this truth? Or am I in for another taxi story?
