Restriction of another Medjugorje seer

There was a time when Marija underwent an operation to donate a kidney to her brother. She received an apparition of Our Lady while she was in the recovery room! The nurses testified to it. Our Lady keeps her promises as she did in Fatima on the 13th of the month at noon. Nonbelievers will mock as they like to do, but the truth will come out at some point in time. Vicka is in my prayers. She is surely undergoing suffering. There was a Canadian mystic, Georgette Faniel who was asked by her spiritual director (Father Girard) to offer her stigmata for the spread of the messages of the Queen of Peace of Medjugorje. From Holy Week of 1985 until her death in 2002, she offered her pain and suffering for the messages of conversion by confession, Eucharist, Scripture, fasting, and rosary to take hold in the world and for Church approval of Medjugorje. Thinking of these suffering souls, I can surely try harder on my own road. We may have just a few more months before some official pronouncement is made. Let's try as best as we can for a positive announcement for the Queen of peace.

 

I agree BH that it's important to keep a balance and a level head when discussing these things and to retain a Christian spirit, that is definitely true.

 

The small point I think I am making is that life has a lot of static and many messages, good and bad, get missed all the time.
We are not angels/demons but humans, full of weakness and blindnesses and imperfections much of which is not of our own making.
Even apparitions and the man Jesus had to work in with that sort of everyday entropy.
Often the message simply does not get through even when everybody is sincere.
So I do not really think much alledged "slapping in the face" is really so, that is but our own fears and anxieties coming out and colouring what is often just the interfering noise/static of life.
That's part of what it means to be human, and fallen at that, it seems to me.

So I do not worry if valid apparitions do not always get recognised by individuals or even by the Church.
Good people keep trying, as they always do, with their kids, their partners, their neighbours, their Church, hopefully even their Pope and other forum members, but most of all ... oneself!
Jesus does .

It just takes time for the message to get through.
If this one isn't suitable, another will arise.

All will be well and all manner of things will be well.

 

I agree with Sanctus. The anti-Medjugorje fanatics are muddying the waters. Those of us trying to follow the Church and listen to her voice are being bullied into silence.. .. The AMFers are inventing facts, information and even deciding the Church's view for her. Don't listen to them. They are control freaks and bullies.

 

Hi Bella, not quite sure what you mean that my comment adds little re the authenticity of Medjugorje.
I have no conclusive idea whether Medj is "authentic" or not.
As far as I know the Church never says anything wrt the "authenticity" of any Apparition.

All it does is makes a prudential (ie practical decision based on available evidence) whether an Apparition is worthy of belief from what I can see. That in the end means the Faithful are free to publicly worship at the Shrine and promote it and that is about all. (It doesn't even mean that any prophecies attached are confirmed as true either it seems.)


I haven't yet visited Medjugorje (and never felt the need to), though I made a trip to Garabandal 2013 specifically to check it out so I could make a final personal decision as to its "authenticity."
I have no doubts at all about Garabandal - though I will have to accept I am somehow mistaken if the Church should come out against it or the major prophecies are not fulfilled in the time frame known to Conchita. (Whether that means it has to be in her lifetime I do not know).

 

Where do you get this information/direction from ?

When Does Our Lady ALWAYS defer to the local bishop ? sounds very fishy to me. This is the Mother of God we are talking about, right ?

 

Blue Horizon
"That in the end means the Faithful are free to publicly worship at the Shrine and promote it and that is about all."

I don't think the faithful have to wait until the end of that process, they can worship at the beginning unless explicitly told not to.

 

No they did not.

In an official letter dated March 25, 1985, Bishop Zanic made it explicitly clear to the parish priest, Father Tomislav Pervan of St. James parish in Medjugorje that the seers were disobedient. That letter can be found here: https://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ZANICMED.HTM

 

Our Lady always has great respect for legitimate Church authority. But as pointed out, here the Vatican has reserved it's authority and deliberately superseded that of the bishop. So the latter's view on the matter is only an opinion, he is no longer the front line authority here.

Actually in the first few weeks it is said that the Bishop was a strong supporter of the apparitions so people who say the visionaries opposed the bishop from the very beginning are wrong anyway.

 

Yes, initially it is said that the local bishop viewed them favorably but that was before the official local investigation began in 1982. That study lasted three years and at the end of that study the local bishop issued a negative judgement.

Then there was the 1991 decision by the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference which concluded that: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations."

It is true that the Vatican has taken over jurisdiction for Medjugorje, but this does not mean that the Vatican has voided the previous declarations. For instance, in 1998, Bertone affirmed the 1991 decision of the Yugoslavian Bishops's Conference. And in 2013, the Vatican stated that "no cleric or faithful may participate in any meetings, conferences, or public celebrations in which the authenticity of the apparitions are taken for granted.”

And then we also have hints of Pope Francis' thinking on this subject. For example, in his daily homily on Nov. 14, 2013, Francis cautioned against a misguided “spirit of curiosity” that can also take our vision off Christ, focusing instead on such predictable visions.

One might be tempted to say “But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady,” he said on that occasion. Our Lady, he stressed, “is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

I think the writing is clearly on the wall for those who wish to see it.

 

Disobedient to what?

I would just have to say.....it is rather difficult to "stop belief" or to "stop the apparitions".....unless you are God. The apparitions continued, not on the children's call but apparently on heaven's.....so their obedience was to a higher authority. And, well, "belief" cannot be turned on and turned off.....even by an order of a bishop!! Much has happened since said letter which would point to the recognition of many "hasty" decisions made by the bishop/s since authority for this private revelation was taken out of the local authority's hands.....and that is rather unprecedented in the history of apparitions.

Hmmm.....ah, how to respond to flippery floppery sensibly when it comes to the bishop and just what exactly influenced such radical changes in attitude, hmmm?: Bishop Zanic:

His position with regard to the apparitions moved from vehement approval to vehement opposition. And so, his positions made a big contribution to the spreading of the knowledge of Our Lady's apparitions throughout the world.

In the first two months of Our Lady's apparitions, the Bishop was in Medjugorje five times. Afterwards he came only to confer the sacrament of Confirmations to the faithful.

He clearly said: "I am deeply convinced that no child who says that they have seen Our Lady, has been talked into doing so. If we were speaking about one child only, one might say he could be stubborn and that not even the police could make the child renounce what he said. But six innocent, simple children in the space of half an hour, would, if they were pushed, admit all. None of the priests, I guarantee, had any idea of putting the children up to something.... I am also convinced that the children are not lying. The children are only speaking out what's in their hearts... It is certain: the children are not lying". (From a sermon given on the feast of St. James, the patron saint of Medjugorje, on the 25th of July 1981). In “Glas Koncila”, the Croatian national catholic newspaper, 16th of August 1981, he stated; "It is definite that the children were not incited by anyone, and especially not by the church, to lie."

At that time, the Parish Priest of Medjugorje was Fr. Jozo Zovko. Fr. Zrinko Cuvalo worked together with him in the parish. Both of them at the beginning were strongly opposed to having anything to do with the apparitions. Bishop Zanic had called on them to be more decided and to recognise Gods' deeds around them. They answered him that there was no need to hurry, but that it would be better to wait to see how it would all develop. However, the Bishop’s favourable position inspired and gave courage even to them and to just about anyone who, for whatever reason hadn't yet taken a positive stance towards the apparitions of Medjugorje.

The then Yugoslav communist government didn't look very benignly on all that was happening at Medjugorje. They proclaimed it to be a counter-revolution. (4th of July 1981). The secret police called Bishop Pavao Zanic to their head-apartment in Sarajevo for examination. They also called Fr. Jozo Zovko. But the happenings took their own course. Bishop Zanic began to speak less and less about the apparitions and Fr. Zovko as Parish Priest began to believe more and more in the supernatural origins of the apparitions. Because of his favourable position towards the happenings, Fr. Jozo was arrested and sentenced to three and a half years of harsh imprisonment. (17th of August 1981). Together with him, Fr Ferdo Vlasic was imprisoned, and a little bit later Fr. Jozo Krizic. The situation had become extremely tense. It was dangerous to say anything about Medjugorje. Everybody felt this, especially as some of the people of the village, and pilgrims finished up in prison.

After a period of silence, bishop Pavao Zanic actively joined in challenging what was happening in Medjugorje.

And, just who is actually guilty of disobedience or at least of being a bad example??:

In an official memorandum of the Vatican State Secretary Office No. 150.458, on the 1st of April 1985, Cardinal Casaroli charged Croatian Cardinal Franjo Kuharic to convey to bishop Zanic that he should "suspend the airing of his own personal statements and renounce making judgements, until such time as all the elements could be conclusively gathered together, and the happenings could be clarified", because bishop Zanic's statement, "The actual position..." had had considerable reverberations in the press. Unfortunately, this request didn't have very much response with the Bishop.

http://www.medjugorje.org/localbishandmed.htm

and re: Bishop Ratko Peric: "he does not believe in any apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary past or present."

Whew! Good thing he doesn't have to handle them then any longer!!

 

Are you implying that the Blessed Mother has Apostolic authority? I hope you are not venturing down that mistaken path.

Glenn Dallaire has an interesting post about this very topic. He notes that the history of the lives of authentic Saints and Mystics proves without a doubt that obedience to Church authority is the litmus test of any private revelation. An example from the life of Saint Margaret Mary illustrates this point:

"The Sacred Heart of Jesus made a request to St Margaret Mary Alocoque, but when she told her Superior this request, her Superior did not approve. Soon afterwards, when Jesus came to her again, she asked Him about this, and He replied: "…not only do I desire that you should do what your Superior commands, but also that you should do nothing of all that I request of you without their consent. I love obedience, and without it no one can please Me" [Autobiography of St Margaret Mary].

Elsewhere in her Autobiography, we read that St Margaret Mary was told by Our Lord: "Listen, My daughter, and do not lightly believe and trust every spirit, for Satan is angry and will try to deceive you. So do nothing without the approval of those who guide you. Being thus under the authority of obedience, his efforts against you will be in vain, for he has no power over the obedient" [cf. -Autobiography]"

Glenn then cites the life of Saint Padre Pio:

"In the life of St Pio of Pietrelcina we discover that his Bishop, Archbishop Gagliardi, falsely accused Padre Pio of various wrongdoings, and had unjust sanctions imposed upon him. When people would speak against the Bishop concerning these unjust sanctions, St. Pio would quickly respond “The will of the Bishop is the will of God.” Conscious of the importance of obedience, Padre Pio was always showing an example of true religious obedience and respect to his superiors. For him, the superior was the image of Christ, and obeying him was obeying Christ. But it happened that God used Padre Pio's superiors as instruments for him to suffer from the Church, and for the Church. And so we see that even if the Bishop may be wrong in his judgment, we are always doing God's will by obeying him....Authentic mystics, like Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena and St Margaret Mary Alacoque are models of obedience. They never pretended to set up Christ against His Church through the revelations that they were given . In fact, there are countless occasions in the lives of the Saints where Our Lord gave them a directive, but then their religious superior or spiritual director forbade it. On every one of these occasions in the lives of the Saints, Jesus always instructed them to obey the directives of their religious superior, even when they were against His own directives or wishes." - http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2009/11/obedience-to-catholic-church-judging.html

 

You are quite right Richard67, Our Lady and Our Lord would always say to be obedient to Church authority. In this case it has been placed in the hands of the Vatican and we must wait for their decision. If a trial is to be placed on Medjugorje as with Padre Pio, St. Faustina, Lourdes ect., it is up to Our Lord and Blessed Mother to handle it. So be it, Thy will be done, Lord. Amen and Amen.

 

They would not have given any blanket order of obedience to Church authority that worked to hide abusers. That error in the Church for so long has been the result of "clericalism" which Pope Francis is trying to rid the Church of as deplorable. And our lady is reported to have answered a questioned posed to her by the visionaries at the request of the faithful about the harsh treatment of the Franciscan priests of the diocese there by the bishop and she replied something like "he acted too hastily"! And she is "the Seat of Wisdom"; no bishop has been given that honor or gift for sure!

 

You can read it from here:
http://www.medjugorje.com/your-petition.html

 

The comment AFTER Charlie's reply to your questions seems to explain a lot:

But, Charlie, whether he was at public conferences/events or not Ivan is still one of the visionaries who receives daily apparitions since he's not been given the full 10 secrets. So he would have had said daily apparition wherever he was. He did not attend the public event as requested that was canceled and had his daily apparition in a private home, I assume where he was staying, which he would have had anyway wherever he would have been. Apparently those hosting him did not feel it necessary to lock him in a room for that and they were not themselves attending any "public event". So where is the necessity for shaming him or them for that matter? And the reports of such as something equal to the large scheduled public event I see came from the usual vehemently opposed to Medjugorje sites like Te Deum Laudamus. That then shouldn't imply "visions on demand" since they were regular anyway. Or did the "Vatican" order the apparitions themselves somehow to stop for him?!! I don't believe so!!

And "the Vatican" would mean, I assume, Cardinal Muller of the CDF who has written letters to local ordinaries where scheduled visits by certain of the visionaries had already been arranged and which had been permitted apparently for quite some time before this rather sudden change. So what exactly is going on here and for what motivation? And as far as I've read all visionaries have therefore not carried through those specific invites as had been already scheduled, not by them, but by the inviters. And this specific congregation itself has as yet to study the dossier or report given to them, by protocol, by the Commission after its many year examination....which Pope Francis has reportedly mentioned as "well done". They keep delaying their own decision (which, btw, doesn't show much respect for the Commission itself) while that must be done by today's protocol before the Pope makes the final decision. Seems to me rather like putting the cart before the horse.

 

It would appear though that our lady simply adapted her usual daily apparition to Maria to the time most convenient to the group hosting Maria. There was no demand for an apparition but rather a simple question done with respect to which our lady responded in kind. The visionaries have all said that our lady in Medjugorje wants us to see her as a mother and a dear friend. She has said in other places that she would come into each home if necessary!

 

What amazes me is the lack of trust in Gods will. If Our Father in heaven wanted the Church to approve...it would be done immediately. Everything is in Gods time. There has to be a balance from the believers of Medjugorje as well as the non-believers (me). this vision is not the end all for salvation. If it approved by the Catholic Church it is only a very small part of the bigger picture.

Brother al

 

God has given us free will to accept or reject. The Virgin of Fatima has labored for 98 years and we have not achieved the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. What could be versus what is based on our own acceptance or rejection.