CDF reaches negative judgment on Medjugorje, Italian journalists report

a

My point exactly..... way to much politics in Church leaders today!! Here's the thing, after nearly 35 years of these alleged messages from our Lady of Medjugorje, one can only find a few wayward minimal bad fruits, while the good fruits are numerous. No one can deny this in good conscience.

 

There were three reasons given for the CDF making a negative decision. The first given was the theological errors in the messages according to the Italian media reports. Anyone who has closely studied the earliest "messages" would know of the theological problems and inconsistencies.

 

This is the kind of nonsense and falsehoods that make those of us watching this phenomenon from the outside roll our eyes. There is no truth to any of these attacks on the motives of Cardinal Müller.

 

What attacks? Relating the facts of his actions as they happened are "attacks"? You conveniently just have your own interpretation of same actions....others don't share the same interpretations. Simple conversation.

 

But apparently it didn't!

 

Immaculee just gave a statement on the subject:

 

Where is she speaking about Medjugore here?

 

Good advice: "use your discernment and see if what Our Lady is asking is against the teaching of the church or the bible. It would be so sad to miss out Our Lady's teachings if she was truly appearing."

 

If this negative decision is true,
know that all of us,
all revelation,
and all the world is crucified, or purified
till winter-dead, that the new spring may come.

I freeze my seeds before planting,
and my God had to die because without His going home, "the Advocate", the Holy Spirit, could not come to inspire us.

Padre Pio, St Faustina, Garabandal...
who is not tried is not true.

I believe we are about to experience the perfect storm and all the secrets that remain unmitigated at Medjugorje.

 

It makes my stomach churn when people misuse great gifts such as this blog to spread doubt and dissension by misquoting and misinterpreting and misreporting. This newspaper article has been presented as a fait accompli against Medjugorje. This was never the case. Only dramatised misleading headlines and commentry made it so. I have never been drawn to Medjugorje but that does not mean I deny it or denounce it. I simply await the church's decision. For me the messages and prophesies and phenomena of Garabandal suffice even without formal approbation. For some reason I have come to believe in them. Unlike Garabandal I have never been to Medjugorje and have never taken much interest in it. If Medjugorje is approved then I will embrace it 100% and will show more interest in it. If not I will pray that the devotion it has engendered is preserved and elevated in the eyes of the faithful in such a way as to preserve respect and love for the authority of the church.

 

I

I am not saying you are wrong but I don't like the sound of your interpretations of the possible verdicts, Miker. It just seems to me, in this interpretation, that none of them are certain , binding or lasting. This in itself is not scriptural. "Let you yes be yes and your no no, everthing else comes from the evil one." Verdict 3, non constat, means that no judgement has been made therefore this scripture does not apply. As far as I know there are only two realms of spirit, the Spirit of God and the spirit of Satan. Either it comes from heaven or it comes from hell. When the church officially and finally calls something supernatural She means unequivocally, therefore, it is from God. When the church says something is definitely not supernatural it means, therefore, it comes from Satan. Have you ever known anything definitely and officially judged by the church magisterium after extensive investigation to be from Satan to later be judged to be from God? I don't. Please don't twist this question. Such a negative judgement does not mean that nothing can be salvaged. We all know that a good end cannot result from a bad start. The verdict, either way, will give a new start, a start that can then produce good and lasting fruits under the guidlines of the Church derived ftom the good faith of God's people, who from no fault of their own may have been misled. I am not saying they have been misled but God will forgive and renew their faith because they were given no definite guidance if that is the case. Only non constat gives grounds for further revision. Guidelines for devotion may also be judged necessary even if a supernatural verdict is given. I am no expert and have no canonical qualifications. These are just my thoughts.

 

Joe , does it make your stomach churn when this blog is misused to demand Medjugorje is authentic ?
When modern day prophets tell us it is real , before the church has decided?
Balance .
Your expertise at work , teaching balance must be applied here ?

 

Yes Mac that would make my stomach churn. I have never seen such a demand here although they may exist and although I have seen plenty support for belief in Medjugorje. If you read my further comments you should see clearly that I neither condone nor condemn, neither accept nor reject Medjugorje. I don't even overly worry about the decision. In my gut reaction to this kind of presumption I am not just talking about Medjugorjem. Using articles from Remnant which present themselves as the only authentic way to express articles of faith is another case in point. Their stance represents such a demand for compliance with their beliefs and as such upsets the old tummy.

 

The Judgement, ' Constat de non supernaturalitate', does not mean that something comes from Satan . The judgment is that an alleged apparition has been shown to be not supernatural means it iseither clearly not miraculous or lacks sufficient signs of the miraculous.

In other words the CHurch is making an each way bet , rather than placing all her money on the hordes of hell.

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm

2. Constat de non supernaturalitate. The judgment that an alleged apparition has been shown to be not supernatural means it iseither clearly not miraculous or lacks sufficient signs of the miraculous. Private revelation, for example, which is doctrinally dangerous or which manifests hostility to lawful authority could not come from God. It could even be demonic, especially if there are extraordinary signs accompanying it. The devil gladly mingles truth and lie to deceive the faithful, dazzling them with signs and wonders to give credence to his message. His purpose is to separate them from the Church, either by getting them to believe things contrary to the deposit of the faith or to act contemptuously of Church authority. An attitude of pride and judgment toward the Church is a clear sign of his presence. An alleged revelation may also only be a pious rambling, consistent with faith and morals, but lacking evidence of being anything more than the product of human effort. No fraud need be intended, only an active imagination. Finally, it may be that the doctrine may be sound and there may be phenomena, but insufficient to demonstrate supernaturality. In this latter case, there would seem to be a possibility of revision.

Also with the more negative decision:

3. Non constat de supernaturalitate. Finally, it may not be evident whether or not the alleged apparition is authentic. This judgment would seem to be completely open to further evidence or development.

In other words the Church is not ever saying 'This is from Satan'. She always leves the door slightly ajar.

 

It is worth recording that the first Church investigation into Garabndal was very negative. The first one (1961-62), was held under the auspices of the then apostolic administrator

.

This was later reversed. So if one had taken from this that Garabandal was from Satan, one would have been mistaken. Satan having, in Joe's terms having escaped from the bag he had been placed back in.



Bishop Doroteo Fernandez

 

To speak against Medjugorje here a couple of years ago was tantamount to Heresy. And probably still is with some members. I wont try to find old threads to give examples . You may come across them yourself in time.

 

Wow, what a lot of speculation! The only definite information is that the Vatican has NOT released ANY document on the matter.

But I copy, below, a typically positive gesture from Pope Francis yesterday, the official anniversary day celebrating the beginning of the Medjugorje apparitions:

THURSDAY, JUNE 25, 2015
‘Medjugorje’ priest with Pope at Mass today

​

A founder of one of the many fruits associated with Medjugorje, Italian priest Fr Guiseppe Sometti, concelebrated Holy Mass with Pope Francis in the Vatican this morning. June 25 is the date set aside to celebrate the anniversary of the Medjugorje phenomenon.

Fr Sometti has worked as a missionary priest in Brazil for the past 40 years. After making several visits to Medjugorje during a sabbatical year in 1985 and developing a friendship with the late Fr Slavko Barbaric, he decided to devote himself to working with abandoned children and addicts, setting up the foundation ANSPAZ –Associação Nossa Senhora Rainha da Paz, which is based in Itapetininga, São Paulo.

In a recent interview with Radio Medjugorje, Fr Giovanni said of his first visit: “I immediately understood that something special was taking place here. I was very moved by friendship with the late Fr Slavko. Medjugorje has many good fruits. After the experience with children and the sabbatical year that I took, and after talking to Fr Slavko, I decided to devote myself to working with children. Now I have 80,000 children and we have 13 active homes.

Fr Sometti recently celebrated his ordination jubilee at a prayer centre dedicated to Our Lady Queen of Peace(pictured below)which is located on a very productive fazenda near the town of Itapetininga, about 150 miles from São Paulo, and has seating for 800 people.

The Medjugorje visionary Vicka laid the foundation stone during one of the several visits she has made to Brazil.




http://www.crownofstars.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/medjugorje-priest-with-pope-at-mass.html

 

If it was regarded as heresy Mac, your goose would long, long since have been very well cooked. You are still making one of your many posts against it.

This is called freedom of speech which we are both still exercising. Not all positions are popular.

This is sometimes the price we pay for either being right or wrong.

 

I stand corrected but feel my conclusion was fairly logical. There again I never studied logic much either except a little with philosophy. I just don't see the point of all that work of the Commission and the CDF now. Thanks for the official version, Padraig. Is it ever unequivocally clear in any available verdict that an event does come from Satan? Would that require that it was anathema to believe in something? I doubt these days that the magisterium would do something like that. I still say that 'supernatural' means from God. 'Not supernatural' must therefore mean 'not from God' The verdict does not say that it COULD mean 'not from God'. It says it IS NOT from God. It says it is NOT CONSISTANT (non constat) with coming from God. It does not say that it is not proven to have come from God. The verdict, in my mind, speaks for itself. If there us one thing I have learned from my dealings with church tribinals, they say what they mean and they nean what they say. They do not require further interpretation. The verdict is the interpretation. No room for wriggling there. The only room is in how the verdict has been reached, in the process. If due process is proved to have been followed then that's the end of it. In any case it's a mute point. No official decision has been published. I would love it if the verdict was positively positive. I just have no opinion for now and because of the interpretations of the verdicts given here, if correct, I will not be able to rely on them anyway, when published. Thanks. I always have Garabandal. My certainty in that outcome is almost 100%. I wish the same for those who in good faith believe in Medjugorje. I hope their good faith is upheld. But faith can be a dangerous thing. You may believe a high tension cable has been disconnected. There may be lots of evidence that it is safe. But if you grasp it and it is live it will kill you. The Church prevents fatal shocks. Or it should.

 

I was not aware of that. Hopefully we can keep sharpening each other Mac. I for one mean no offense. I am too busy to go searching. I take your word........on this