Chrisitne Gallagher

There is as there has always been in the Church a healthy kind of wrestling match or tension between what I would call the mystical or prophetic and the institutional , organisational of if you like material Church.
The organisational Church can be very sensitive to if you like mystical intrusion. But the two sides of things need each other in order to survive.

I think you see this in the human body. We that which is solid and easily defined , the physical. But we also see that which is less easily defined the human spirit or soul. But in order to be fully human we need both.

So for the Church herself. She need the Fire of the Holy Spirit, the mystical to give her life. Part of this coming of the Spirit is through the Gift of Prophecy. If we cut of this Gift we start to shut down life itself. It is just that important.

 

One thing we must always remember about false visionaries and mystics and that is that they will always, always fail, as Rabbi Gamaliel indicated. They will always, always fail.

Give them enough rope...

 

I stopped watching Voris a long time ago. There are many people on this forum I would rather learn theology from than him.

But none of us have his talent for communication and propaganda.

http://www.dioceseofscranton.org/2011/04/07/statement-regarding-michael-voris/

 

I think Michael's difficulty in this is that he precludes too the free action of the Holy Spirit with a human thinking. So that the action of the Holy Spirit becomes mechanistic. Rather like say someone in an Embassy who stamps passports with visas

I think he carries across this mechanistic, human way of looking at things across into his general apostolate so he says reform as orginating too much from human effort, rather like a political party cleaning up corruption. This is why I too no longer really watch him very much.

I think a good example of how Holy Mother Church allows the Holy Spirit freely to operate is in the pilgrimage of saints to canonisiation. The key outpouring of the Holy Spirit is in the formation of a cultus building up around the Servant of God. In other words thousands, maybe hundreds of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Catholics like ourselves having a veneration for this dead person. So this is the historic doorway Holy Mother Church gets the tap on the shoulder and the nod to go ahead and canonise, that of course and miracles...also an action of the Holy Spirit.
The same cultus is central to the discernment process of not yet approved apparition sites/visionaries. yet how can such a cultus develop if we did not permit it in the first place?

It would be like killing the child in the womb.

A for instance is when the sun danced at Fatima. This was then an unapproved apparition site . Yet if we follow Michael's advice those people should not have turned up to watch it. They should have stayed at home and read a Papal Letter or done something really useful like watching Michael Voris on utube

No I am sorry I don't agree with Michael's approach in this, it is very seriously flawed. Like many others I am afraid I have flicked the, 'Off' switch with Michael.

A pity, but there you are.

View attachment 2872

 

Also of course the Church has never taught the Faithful not to believe in unapproved visions/ mystical phenomena.

never, never, never.

So if the Church has never taught such a thing how can Michael Voris so dogmatically teach it? Does he know more than the Popes and the Magisterium?

 

A very good example of a Cultus in work was at the funeral of Saint John Paul 2 when thousands of ordinary Catholics shouted out 'Santo subito', (make him a saint quickly) , going by Michale Voris they should have kept their mouths shut.

But that is simply not the way the Church does things. It keeps the door open for the Holy Spirit...and there is never anything ordinary about an ordinary Catholic. 'Lumen Gentium ', surely taught us that.

 

.....'but you are hooked on the spiritual porn also...haha'

Ok, fine I will leave it at that.

 

I agree very much with Padraig here, especially his cartoon of the baby being thrown out of the window with the bath water! While Voris has a point about the folly of 'pursuing apparitions', the conclusion that we should follow none of them is classically false. Medjugorje is the best argument against this kind of logic and the idea that we should ignore what Our Lady has been doing for 35 years on the basis we don't need any more help from above, we already have everything in the Church, is fundamentally mistaken.

In looking for Michael Voris references on Google just now, I found the following 'news' about him:
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/ind...-voris-quits-cmtv-going-to-work-for-mark-shea
I haven't seen that reported elsewhere.....

 

Is that link for real? In the linked article he seems to be overly sarcastic. I just saw a CMTV video on YouTube a few weeks ago in any case so he's still up to his usual divisive ranting.
I look at him every now and again but to be honest he just takes the hammer out to much and like Padraig says above, his attitude of waiting for church approval of apparitions is just not realistic. His condemnation of every ongoing still-to-be-approved apparition also defies logic and reason.

 

Jimmy, I think you would like Charlie Johnston's latest post, if you haven't already read it.

https://charliej373.wordpress.com

 

Wow! A very humble statement by Michael Voris, he shoots up in my estimation. Very humble. I must remember to pray for him , he must be going through a very difficult time.

It's funny how God works.

 

Although as mentioned he does seem to be still broadcasting?

 

the link says ...

Home / News/Press Releases / Statement Regarding Michael Voris

Statement Regarding Michael Voris
Posted on: 04-7-2011 Posted in: News
The Diocese of Scranton has determined that Mr. Voris will not be allowed to speak in a Diocesan or parish facility. After these engagements were scheduled, the Diocese became aware of concerns about this individual’s views regarding other religious groups. In videos posted on the Internet, Mr. Voris makes comments that certainly can be interpreted as being insensitive to people of other faiths. The Catholic Church teaches us to respect all people, regardless of their faith tradition.

Although the Diocese shares Mr. Voris’ support of efforts to protect human life, his extreme positions on other faiths are not appropriate and therefore the Diocese cannot host him.

In full disclosure, this is the same Diocese of Msgr Esseff, spiritual director of (LTTW) Locutions to the World since 2010.Recent Messages CLAIM, LTTW is basically the mother of all locutions/apparitions ( I would have to re-read these since January to find the 2 that make this claim)

IS THERE some Connection between Voris, Msgr Esseff and the Diocese of Scranton....That I don't know...????????

Msgr. John Esseff

I am Msgr. John A. Esseff, a Roman Cathoic priest in the Diocese of Scranton, I was ordained on May 30th 1953, by the late Bishop William J. Hafey, D.D. at St. Peter's Cathedral in Scranton, PA.

 

I notice Michael writing of the 'Conciliar Church', which is curious since this is a phrase I only ever heard used by Traditionalist Catholics, strange because Michael never openly stated he is from a Traditionalist viewpoint, but I begin to wonder.

 

Although Traditionalists tend to be more open to Apparitions than anyone.

 

The remnant newspaper is a SSPX/Arcbishop Lefebrve supporter who frequently throw bombs at the Church... I believe one of there mottos is In your Face

 

Wow, that's an eye opener. Strange goings on.

 

I have this first hand from SSPX devotees in NJ.2 brothers kinda split one ran/runs the wanderer and the other the remnant newspapers....Im going back to the 1990's