You guys are amazing...predicting heresy by Our Holy Father. Demoting, who says, the secular media. God has plan for Cardinal Burk, maybe this opens him up to preach the gospel in many countries. As for Mark mallet... he gets quoted more then the pope. This catholic forum is slowly going in wrong direction. Our Blessed Mother would not be happy Again i state, debate is good, but promoting schism, mistrust, and conflict is not from God it is from the "created one". Brother al
Accusing others of "promoting schism" when that is not the case is a grave sin too. The "diabolical disorientation" of our times was foretold by Our Blessed Mother. We have to be willing to recognize it and figure out how to deal with it, without accusing our brothers falsely of "schism" simply for their being the watchman in the tower.
Let us just pray for Cardinal Burke (and all bishops, priests, and cardinals) and Pope Francis. Right now, it appears Pope Francis is simply emphasizing mercy, as he feels that side of the mercy/justice divide has been neglected. He is also emphasizing that evangelization and conversion starts with receiving love from other Christians and an attraction to the Church and Christ. The doctrine comes secondarily. Let us listen to him in this regard. If Pope Francis actually does cross the line over to heresy, then we will have to pray about how to deal with this. In my opinion, this would mean that he wasn't a legitimate Pope at all, because of Christ's promise. If he never gets around to clearly enunciating Church teaching and continues to let the media twist his words, then this is a serious mistake, but does not impugn the fact that he is a legitimate Pope.
Three things MarysChild. 1. You and Br Al may be right about Cardinal Burke's demotion. However, what about the people he is promoting? Sry, not much confidence there. 2. Does he not see liberal Christianity is dying everywhere? Mercy/justice divide has been neglected? Really? After all the church has been through the last 50-60 years with homosexual prelates/seminaries/raping of our children by the clergy; yes, raping of our children by the clergy is what I said. 3. Do I even have to go into the gay agenda/lobby, inside the church and in the public square. Really?
Brian, if you truly believe this is a response to my questions rather than a speech to the gallery I think you are seriously obsessed with this topic as others have noted. It renders you incapable of listening and therefore of rational dialogue or balanced interpretation of the reports that so upset you. Brian I have only experienced such ubalanced emotion in otherwise intelligent persons when there has been a history of trauma in one's youth. If it is true then you might want to self reflect on where all this displaced angst, the deep mistrust of the Pope and the somewhat excessive hero worshipping of other persons may really be coming from.
Defender of the faith - Luther. Luther defended the faith against obvious error and those who took him at his word went in to schism. Was Luther happy about that - I don't think so. Maybe you're right BrianK, but good luck to you. There was one Catherine of Siena, there were (and are) loads of schismatic faith defending protestants.
Do you honestly think folks are stupid enough to fall for your juvenile games? Will you accuse mainstream Catholic priest bloggers of the same? If you do it will reflect on no one's credibility except your own. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/11/good-bye-to-burke.html Good Bye To Burke? November 8, 2014 by: Fr. Dwight Longenecker Cardinal Raymond Burke Cardinal Burke’s transfer from being the Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura to be patron of the Knights of Malta is a startling move which will almost certainly prove to be disastrous for Pope Francis. Whether he likes it or not, Cardinal Burke has emerged from the recent synod on the family as the figurehead for the conservative resistance to Pope Francis. Burke rejects the charge that he is anything but loyal to the Holy Father inthis interview at Aleteia, but this is not the perception which either the media pundits on either the progressive or conservative sides are seeing. Burke has said the church seems to be “rudderless”. He has emerged as the most outspoken critic of the Kasperite modernizers and both Michael Sean Winters here and Fr Z.here agree that Cardinal Burke’s new, largely ceremonial role, rather than silencing him, actually frees Burke from real responsibility thus giving him the freedom to become the voice of resistance to what many perceive as an increasingly progressive agenda within the Vatican. Burke will probably continue to criticize the “Kasperites” like Cardinal Baldisseri–the Secretary of the synod on the Family and the progressive Archbishop Bruno Forte, and his apparent demotion will give him the global megaphone and status as a media figure. The media loves a conflict and they love figureheads and personalities who represent a particular stance. Whether he likes it or not, and whether it is true or not, by transferring Burke in this way Pope Francis has created a media megaphone for his increasingly disillusioned conservative opponents. Damian Thompson has written a particularly acerbic piece this week sayingWatch Out Pope Francis the Catholic Civil War Has Begun while New York Times columnist Ross Douthat reports here on the chaos that took place in the synod and hints of rebellion in the ranks and a looming schism. All of this is disastrous for the church’s mission, and by seeming to demote Cardinal Burke Pope Francis has not only given the conservatives a clear leader, but he has made Burke a cause celebre and a kind of martyr. Many conservatives who already see emeritus Pope Benedict as their “real pope” will rally around Cardinal Burke. There is nothing that unites a faction more than the sense of being persecuted, and there is little that rallies those who feel marginalized more than the idea that they are being persecuted by a cabal of shadowy figures behind the scenes who are conspiring against them. If it is a Vatican insider circle all the more tantalizing. Whether this is what is actually happening or not is beside the point. Whether Cardinal Burke sees himself as a latter day Archbishop Lefevbre or not is beside the point. Whether Pope Francis and a gang of cronies really are secret progressives intent on destroying the Catholic Church from within or not–all this is irrelevant. Burke’s transfer first from the Congregation of Bishops and now from the Apostolic Signatura will appear to be not only a demotion, but one which is very personal in nature. No one has suggested that he has done either job badly and there is no whiff of scandal or impropriety. Therefore people will conclude, rightly or wrongly, that Pope Francis didn’t like the guy so he fired him. Whether this is true or not, does not matter. What matters is that this is how many conservative Catholics will perceive what is happening, and it is this perception that will drive their reactions and future events in the Catholic Church. Furthermore, this is also how the progressives will interpret the transfer. They will rejoice at Burke’s departure, and their chortles of triumph will add to the division in the church causing conservatives to circle the wagons and load their muskets. In practical terms the actual effect of moving Cardinal Burke from the Apostolic Signatura may be insignificant. However, the symbolic impact will be huge, and it is difficult to see how it can be anything but a disaster for both Pope Francis’ papacy, the reforms he wishes to introduce, and the church at large. I may be wrong, and I do not profess to be any kind of expert in Vatican goings on, but if a good number of conservative Catholics do read the events in this way, then as Ross Douthat has observed, Pope Francis may find himself trying to shepherd not a flock of submissive sheep, but a herd of stubborn oxen–not just dumb oxen, but angry bulls with heads down, pawing the ground and ready to charge.
You can try to marginalize and silence defenders of the Faith on this little forum but orthodox Catholics will continue to defend the Faith here and elsewhere: http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2014/burke-and-another-translation-error.html Burke and Another “Translation Error” And so, it’s official. Saturday morning, the Vatican announced that Cardinal Raymond Burke has been removed as head of the Apostolic Signatura – the Church’s highest ecclesial court – and appointed cardinal patron of the Knights and Dames of Malta. The move was long rumored to be coming and when it came it was no great surprise. But as often happens, now that the dreaded day has actually arrived, I find myself both saddened and (a little more than mildly) seething.There’s a double sadness here. Pope Francis clearly approved these moves – whether they were instigated by him personally or by advisers he listens to. But it’s precisely voices like Burke’s that he needs to keep around. He’s already hearing plenty from often unreliable counselors like Cardinals Maradiaga, Marx, and Kasper. The last in particular seems more and more incoherent as he tries to explain precisely why marriage is indissoluble and yet those in a second sexual relationship – though not a marriage – may be absolved and return to receiving Communion. The only way that’s possible is if God repeals the Law of Non-contradiction. I don’t think that’s on his to-do list. But there’s more and, I think, worse. I’m not especially given to conspiracy theories in sacred or secular contexts. But there’s some – let’s say – systemic problem within the Vatican that having a loyal truth-teller like Burke around helps to correct. Two days before his reassignment, another “translation error” was noticed in the official English translation of the Final Synod Report. As Fr. Gerald Murray noted here Saturday, it took weeks to produce that translation. We might have expected it to have been carefully worked up and vetted at the very highest levels. Instead, here’s what happened – or at least what appears to have happened. (The Vatican currently says it wants to be very transparent and open in its dealings – a debatable approach for an institution like the Catholic Church – but it would really serve those goals if the responsible figures explained what happened in this instance.) The translation was published. Robert P. Imbelli, a Jesuit who teaches at Boston College, noticed an odd omission and on November 3 wrote about it on the blog of the liberal Catholic magazineCommonweal. Paragraph 3 (actually 4 in the official Italian and now corrected) spoke of “facing the situation, with an eye on the Lord Jesus, to discern how the Church and society can renew their commitment to the family.” Nothing controversial there, except that the Italian went on: “commitment to the family, founded on the marriage between man and woman.” An omission that’s plenty controversial. In fact, so controversial that it seems that translation was taken down for a while at the Vatican website (it’s back now). Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke I’ve done a fair bit of translating myself and am indulgent when minor errors crop up, especially in a difficult or long text. Translators are only human – very human at the Vatican, it seems. That such an omission could have occurred and that someone in authority to review the text could have let it go outwith that omission seems more than a momentary lapse. It’s either serious negligence in dealing with a highly sensitive point or a deliberate softening of the text. Either way, something is deeply amiss. The expression “man and woman” occurs five other times in the text: to speak of their “indissoluble union” that was the original plan (14), but as a prelude to the need for mercy; to note their “vocation” in the family (18); to affirm the truth of their love (19); to take notice of “stable and true relationship” outside of Christian marriage (22); and to acknowledge “civil marriages” (27). In other words, the only place the term seems to have been suppressed was in a kind of global definition of family as based in the marriage between man and woman. Several traditional Catholics I know have been trying to reassure themselves and the rest of us when these “translation errors” appear. But we’re not talking about an elderly atheist editor at La Repubblica quoting from memory here or a quick translation of some papal discourse. Even if this is merely a slip, I personally am not much reassured. It means that the whole Vatican apparatus for translating and carefully reviewing sensitive documents is unreliable, at best. There’s a simpler explanation, I’m afraid. Among the current uncertainties in the Church, the “mistranslations” have all leaned in the last two years in the direction of progressive views. That certainly tells us something. That’s why Burke’s continued presence in the mix would have been valuable to the Holy Father. He’s the one who has been “free and open” in stating his views, as the pope requested, and courageous and faithful amidst multiple temptations to go along with post-Christian culture. There are not many such truth-tellers in any organization. Disagree with him you may, but a good leader knows he needs people around him who will give him their unvarnished opinions. Announcing the move on a Saturday morning – the ecclesial equivalent of the White House late-Friday “news dump” to lessen controversy – was also singularly ineffective. Even major secular newspapers and other media outlets – who have, shall we say, a certain interest in pushing the line that the Church is finally coming their way – carried stories Sunday about the “demotion of a Vatican hardliner.” The Associated Press even reminded readers that this was Burke’s second firing – he was dropped from the Congregation for Bishops earlier this year. Cardinal Burke is a gentleman and a gentle man, and he will not comment of the pope’s decision. Malta, though mostly a ceremonial post, is not nothing. I am not a member, but the women and men who are do very good work. Burke will no doubt perform his new duties with the same diligence and industriousness he has shown in every other post. These efforts of this Maltese falcon will bear fruit in their proper time, Deo volente. Robert Royal is editor-in-chief of The Catholic Thing, and president of the Faith & Reason Institute in Washington, D.C. His most recent book is The God That Did Not Fail: How Religion Built and Sustains the West, now available in paperback from Encounter Books.
"That’s why Burke’s continued presence in the mix would have been valuable to the Holy Father. He’s the one who has been “free and open” in stating his views, as the pope requested, and courageous and faithful amidst multiple temptations to go along with post-Christian culture. There are not many such truth-tellers in any organization. Disagree with him you may, but a good leader knows he needs people around him who will give him their unvarnished opinions." So there you have it. No one on the "right" is allowed in on the discussions? Disastrous indeed.
You are correct MC. Getting nervous, trying times indeed: Pope faces hopes, risks at family conference Features Faith by Associated Press - October 4, 2014 117 In Photo: Cardinal Walter Kasper poses for the photographer after an interview with the Associated Press in his home at the Vatican. VATICAN CITY—From his stylish living room overlooking Saint Peter’s Square, Cardinal Walter Kasper doesn’t come off as a figure at the center of one of the greatest storms swirling in Catholicism in decades. Relaxed on a black leather sofa, the German theologian says he fully expected the knives would come out when, at Pope Francis’s request, he made a suggestion that challenged a deep church taboo and has dominated debate ahead of a landmark meeting on Catholic family life that opens this weekend. The issue is not abortion, contraception or gay marriage. It is the fate of Catholics who divorce—and the outcome will be a key test of how far Francis’s reform agenda will go. Delivering a speech to a closed meeting of cardinals in February, Kasper suggested that Catholics who remarry without an annulment, a church declaration that the first marriage was invalid and, thus, never existed, might receive Communion after a period of penance. Church teaching holds that without an annulment, these Catholics are living in sin and, thus, ineligible to receive the sacraments. Based on the mudslinging the remarks caused between church liberals and conservatives, outside observers might have thought that Kasper had proposed that women be ordained priests. Five prominent cardinals—including the Vatican’s doctrine czar and its supreme court chief justice—published an entire book to refute him. Francis’s top economic adviser did the same in a preface to another book. Conservative commentators, canon lawyers and theologians have been furiously blogging to argue that Kasper’s suggestion is impossible for the simple reason that it runs contrary to Jesus’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage. “The Church is not going to change its teaching on the indissolubility of marriage because she cannot,” American Cardinal Raymond Burke, one of Kasper’s fiercest critics, told reporters this week. But as he faces the firestorm, Kasper appears to have a powerful ally: the pope himself. During his first Sunday blessing as pontiff, Francis praised Kasper by name as a “great theologian” and gave an unprecedented papal thumbs up to his book, Mercy, which provides the theological basis for mercy being at the heart of the Christian message. Showing the church’s merciful face, rather than its morality-driven side, has come to define Francis’s pontificate, and informs the way he has long treated complicated pastoral issues like divorce. “I believe that this is the season of mercy,” Francis told reporters last year when asked about a possible opening for divorced and remarried Catholics. Kasper, an 81-year-old veteran Vatican official, is calm amid the tempest, and certain that a solution can be found. “I think we can have common criteria, a common doctrine on marriage and family,” Kasper said. “And then I think the bishops’ conferences should decide concrete ways to do it.” On divorce, Kasper argues that if the church can forgive a murderer, surely it can forgive someone whose first marriage failed and wants to try again, while still participating in the sacramental life of the church. “Mercy is that God gives us a new chance, in every situation, if we want it,” Kasper said. “That is a very important message: We can always start anew.” While the divorce issue has dominated the premeeting debate, the two-week synod will cover a host of hot-button issues related to Catholic family life, including premarital sex, contraception and gay unions. Vatican officials say no issue is off-limits, and that Francis wants a frank and open discussion that will continue into next year when final proposals are made. In some ways, Francis took some of the steam out of divorce issue by creating a special commission of canon lawyers to study technical ways to streamline the annulment process. Catholics have long complained that it can take years to get an annulment, if they can get one at all. Many dioceses in the developing world don’t even have annulment tribunals. The US has so many that it accounts for nearly half of all the annulments granted worldwide: 18,895 in 2012 compared to the 42,686 globally. Critics of the annulment process say the wealthy and well-connected get preferential treatment. Supporters say it is a way to provide justice and arrive at the truth of why a marriage failed. Some canon lawyers and theologians speculate that one change the Vatican might approve is to remove the automatic appeal for all annulments, which would certainly streamline the process. For Irene Calvo Crespo, a 46-year-old communications consultant from Spain, no amount of streamlining would remove the trauma she says she endured going through the annulment that her ex-husband sought so he could remarry in the church. They had been married for 10 years and had two children when they separated in 2009. In an interview over coffee in Rome, she said she testified for more than two hours before five strangers—the ecclesial tribunal—about the most intimate details of her sex life. She said she endured “groundless” accusations by her ex-husband’s family and friends, made solely to conform to the church’s requirements that there was some inherent defect in the marriage to render it null. According to court documentation she provided to the Associated Press, the church granted the annulment on the grounds that her ex-husband lacked “internal freedom” on his wedding day that caused a “defect in discretion of judgment.” He claimed he never really wanted to marry her but was compelled to go through with it by his strict, conservative upbringing, she said. “You can take all the testimony of the world, you can do all the psychological exams, but the truth is that we were in love and were well aware when we married, and no tribunal in the world can change this truth,” she wrote in a letter to the tribunal. “If this tribunal wants to join a farce for reasons unknown to me, go ahead, but you should know, this is all theater.” Nicole Winfield / The Associated Press Image Credits: AP/Domenico Stinellis Share this:
I think it's fairly safe to say that Pope Francis didn't translate the Italian into English, but what the heck let's blame him for that too! This thread seems to be an ever increase pit of quicksand, so I will say 'so long, farewell, adieu to you and you...'
Brian you believe what you are doing here is not juvenile? Look in the mirror my friend, look in the mirror. You opine that people who disagree with you are either ignorant or stupid. You seem full of unbalanced emotion you mistake for divine zeal. Everything is life and death and so solemn for you on this topic. Unable to truly listen, no lightness, no humour, unable to laugh at yourself. These are the tell-tale signs of obsession. Let it go. This self-obsessed, paranoid distrust of the horrible evils of Pope Francis is rooted more in conspiracy theory than substantiated fact and is growing tiresome and uncharitable. Lighten up for goodness sake. Who was it that said "Heaven save me from gloomy faced believers ." View attachment 2353
I have been trying to look for a silver lining in Cardinal Burke's demotion and transfer. Could it be that if Italy is truly invaded from the south as some prophecy has stated (I think Pedro Regis; maybe others?), that maybe our beloved Cardinal Burke will be spared from any possible persecution as he will be in Malta? Just some attempt at positive speculation on my part.
Was wondering when you were going to take a breather. Whew! Do you have a day job btw? If so it's been sorely neglected.
LOL! Hope you've got good malpractice coverage for your amateur Internet psychoanalysis practice. You're gonna need it based on your performance so far. God bless, (Dr.) BrianK
