No confusion for me at all. Pope Francis is the validly elected Vicar of Christ, chosen at this time for us. It's not my place to worry about which direction he is going. It's my place to pray for him, to pray for the Church and to Trust in Jesus Christ. I'm more worried about some cardinals and lay people - some on this site- who keep on ranting about schism. That is a mortal sin. I'm afraid that kind of talk allows the devil in.
http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/civil_n2/histscript5_n2/schism1.html 'Thus far, therefore, there was not a single objection to or dissatisfaction with the selection of Bartolommeo Prignano, not a protest, no hesitation, and no fear manifested for the future. Unfortunately Pope Urban did not realize the hopes to which his election had given rise. He showed himself whimsical, haughty, suspicious, and sometimes choleric in his relation with the Cardinals who had elected him. Too obvious roughness and blamable extravagances seemed to show that his unexpected election had altered his character. St. Catherine of Siena, with supernatural courage did not hesitate to make him some very well founded remarks in this respect, nor did she hesitate when there was a question of blaming the Cardinals in their revolt against the Pope whom they had previously elected. Some historians state that Urban VI openly attacked the failings real or supposed, of members of the Sacred College, in that he energetically refused to restore the Pontifical See to Avignon. Hence, they added to the growing opposition. However, that may be, none of these unpleasant dissensions which arose subsequently to the election could logically weaken the validity of the choice made of April 8, 1378.' 'Where is the True Pope? The Saints themselves were divided: St. Catherine of Siena, St. Catherine of Sweden, Blessed Peter of Aragon, Blessed Ursala of Parma, Philippe DiAlencon, and Gerard De Groote were in the camp of Pope Urban VI; St. Vincent Ferrer, Blessed Peter of Luxemburg, and St. Colette belonged to the Party of Clement.'
I think many of us are in a tizzy but Jesus isn't - not now, not when he told that parable, not ever. But what is he saying to us today in that parable? He knows what He's about, but we aren't sure. The pontificate of BXVI saw me change from someone who couldn't see why a German would be made pope (and didn't really care), to becoming someone loving every phrase that issued from him and sooo in love with our great God. Francis challenges me, but as I said in another thread, I am scared sh**less of losing my little faith when I wander around trying to bring the light to people in darkness. JPII and BXVI gave clear distinct views of what we should do, but Francis is pushing us out of our armchairs. I think everyone on this forum would love a pope that told us we have to say all 20 mysteries of the Rosary every day, and maybe make weekly Eucharistic Adoration compulsory. But Francis wants us out there with the sheep. Could it be that the illumination of conscience is so close that we have to let people know about a loving God, because there isn't time to get them to get them living according to the 'law'? The people in my life are not evil but most are living lives that involve much of the following: marital separation, contraception, service of mammon. I struggle to stand and point clearly to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Often the only contribution I can make to coffee shop conversations is a silent Holy Mary in my head... We have a new 'gym coach', and he wants to change the way we play. The game is still the glorification of God and the salvation of souls. What do we need to do differently, if time is running out?
miker, I am with you on the first part, we need to stick by the Holy Father as he leads us to the conclusion of the Fatima messages and the era of peace. It will be painful at times and confusing, but this is all part of the purification. I do not however, think it is sinful to acknowledge the schism that lies ahead. After all, it has been prophecised from scripture on. It is taking place now whether we like it or not. God is in control and we must reserve ourselves to prayer, conversion and trust in the Lord that he is in charge of His Church.
http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=315086&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu= 'There is no discrepancy here, however, for the Church has never claimed that infallibility applies to personal behavior of a pope. Rather, infallibility holds true in those matters in which he intends to teach in matters of faith and morals. A pope may behave badly or choose poorly, for there is no such immunity from human weakness in every aspect of his life. In the case of St. Peter, he may not have sinned by his action but did not act courageously as he might have. And St. Paul challenged the behavior, given the implications to the Gospel of the behavior of Peter. Only because there was so much at stake did the Apostle to the Gentiles challenge publicly the Vicar of Christ.'
I'm not defending the pope's style nor have I said every utterance is infallible. We all KNOW infallibility is when he speaks ex cathedra, which he has not done. I highly doubt that anything out of the synod will lead to dogmatic change. I have no problem if some want to question his style but the word schism is being used by many from "conservative" side of Church. I happen to be conservative and traditional in my approach, but I stand very much opposed to thus. Obedience is called for at this moment. And a little bit of silence and humility from those opposed might also be a sign of their virtue and charity. I will leave it at that. I'm not here to argue.
As i read about peoples fears on what is happening in the Church and what way we are heading I keep reminding myself of a speech by Franklin D Roosevelt. WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF. First inauguration of Franklin D. Roosevelt So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and of vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. And I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days.
I don't believe it is disobedience to ask the hard questions. There is such a thing as the sin of omission just as much as the sin of commission. Sometimes silence itself can be a sin. One Polish Bishop stated that the recent document pulled up in the Synod was the greatest public act of heresy in the history of any meeting of the Fathers of the Church. I am sorry, I agree with himself and the many, many other Bishops and Cardinals who have said so. Remaining silent on the face of such a horror and abomination is not an option. I feel, as they do and did, that silence is no longer an option. James 4:17 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
Is it disobedient to say that Francis is at the helm of a rudderless ship? Or as another poster here linked to a site accusing him of being an anti-pope. I need to understand Padraig, where the MOG sure stands. I'm concerned.
It seems there are two sides to this argument. Both are traditional and conservative. Just like what is happening with the Cardinals. Maybe it's letter of the law traditionalist vs mystical traditionalist. We seem to be on the same ship but with different starting points. At this point, i don't believe anyone should call or promote Papa Francis as the Anti-pope. That is against all that is catholic. That is a major reason this debate started. He has not betrayed the Papacy, dogma or His pastoral duties. To debate Our Holy Fathers actions or non-actions is a freedom that is accepted and even welcomed by Our Holy Mother Church. But to openly promote schism and declaring the Vicar of Christ the Anti-pope with no substantiated proof and only speculation from so-called visionaries is directly from the "created one". There is room for everyone in MOG but when comments, visions and/or seers start promoting schism...it affects Our Holy Mother Church. Brother al
Call me niave but I think that document from the synod was an example of "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves." It was an education for all of us, including Pope Francis. The 'liberals' got some rope and we all saw what they did with it. I'm sticking with the Pope. Now if BXVI was to stand up and say HERESY then I'd have some hard thinking to do
Padraig this is wallowing in romanticism.You are also sold on a strongly political model of Church which is not aparticularly sound way to understand her role and therefore correctly grasp failure or success. And Peter was crystal and knew where he was going...that would invole a certain historical amnesia/interpretation to fly that kite. We should be big enough and ugly enough to walk the path at night without a streetlamp every step of the way. That is the bravery required, why do you quake at that challenge when you are up for every other type of fight? Faith is not sight, you are in fact failing the Thomas Test if you mean what you say? PADRAIG: Sign. Blue , I understand your post about as much as I understand anything else about this whole mess. Which is to say not at all. BLUE: Well its a bit strange you've used moderator privs to respond within my own post Padraig - now I finally understand what a Locution feels like! Anyways, that is the whole point!!! Crossings to the New Land are always done without sight kicking ans screaming. Why do we all want it differently? If it could be done eyes open and with understanding we would have done it ourselves already. We are all missing the big picture, so God is doing it for us. We just have to accept the way of darkness at times. As John of the Cross put it... to find a place unknown we must travel a path unknown.
The Pope is the Pope and unless he gets hit with lightning I'm sticking with him too. But the Synod was a shocking mess. Now we head in for round two. I would have been a lot happier if I had seen 30 or forty public excommunications on the Synod floor by the Holy Father himself. Then I would have regarded the whole thing as a huge success. ...maybe got the Swiss Guard to use some of those heavy weaponary they have stored away for emergency use. But the scorpians are still crawling away in the very heart of the Church and in very high positions. If the intention was to bring them out into the open it has been well achieved. Now that the scorpians have crawled out from under their stones it is time to crush them surely? But they are still there; still on their thrones waiting for their next chance which won't be long in coming. Sticking with the Pope and being happy about what is going down are not the same two things. I am sticking, but I am not a happy sticker.
Padraig, thank you for having the courage to speak from your heart and follow your intuition. Please don't let peer pressure sway you from proclaiming the hard word here, even if its not popular. Many are trying to present a false dichotomy, that if one has misgivings about this Synod or this pope or finds the agendas behind them to be less than orthodox, that one has left the Church or is fomenting schism. Nothing could be farther from the Truth. Defending the Faith never foments schism nor does it place one outside the Church. I trust Cardinal Pell and Archbishop Schneider and Cardinal Burke because they are defending the Faith, they are championing orthodoxy in the face of compromise and heterodoxy. It could be that the Pope will still come down on the side of orthodoxy regarding the issues raised at the Synod, but his words and actions to this date indicate he not only supports but has orchestrated the heterodox assault on moral theology and the Sacraments represented by the German bishops as well as the Secretary and Special Secretary of the Synod. His demotion of Cardinal Burke and recent manipulation of canon law regarding the forced resignation of bishops and cardinals does not bode well. We must watch and pray and have eyes to see and ears to hear. We must not succumb to the normalcy bias represented by some forms of peer pressure within the broader Catholic community, because we are not living in normal times. Never before in 2000 years has the Church promulgated such a blatantly heterodox document. Never before has a pope personally intervened to make certain that those heterodox elements remained in the final Synod document despite the loud protestations of the Defenders of the Faith at that same Synod. These are not normal times. We all must wake up to that reality.
Padraig, was your Dad Zebedee and your Mam Salome coz you're sounding a lot like the brothers Boanerges
I would like to give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt and believe he is not supporting these snakes. So in the happy assumption that he does not: ..still I am left with the problem of why if he does not ,did he not stamp on these people with both feet? The Church is not a democracy. People do not get the chance to pick and choose what they will or will not believe. Additionally people try to establish a wide swath of water between Pastoral initiatives and doctrine. But this is a nonsense. Of course Doctrine must instruct Pastoral activity. How could it not? Also to believe that mercy trumps justice is insane. Justice resides in truth and having first established truth one can then quite happily move onto mercy once truth is recognised and there is, if necessary proper contrition. You cannot have mercy first and then justice and truth , hoping that justice and truth will somehow be arrived at later. This is just a bizarre nonsense. It is rather like a priest who give absolution in the confessional before the person tells his sins and expresses contrition. The horse comes before the cart. What could be more logical.?
BLUE: Well its a bit strange you've used moderator privs to respond within my own post Padraig - now I finally understand what a Locution feels like! Anyways, that is the whole point!!! Crossings to the New Land are always done without sight kicking ans screaming. Why do we all want it differently? If it could be done eyes open and with understanding we would have done it ourselves already. We are all missing the big picture, so God is doing it for us. We just have to accept the way of darkness at times. As John of the Cross put it... to find a place unknown we must travel there by a path unknown.
I don't disagree that Mercy requires Justice. I just wonder if as both St. John Paul and St. Faustina exhorted we are in the moment and time of Great Mercy? It doesn't mean that Justice dies not come. It does and if we don't respond and accept this great moment of Mercy than yes, we face Justice and Truth. But Mercy is also Truth if we listen to the Diary of the great mercy saint, Faustina: You will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary429) Speak to the world about My mercy ... It is a sign for the end times. After it will come the Day of Justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fountain of My mercy. (Diary 848) Tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near. (Diary 965). I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation. (Diary 1160) Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588) He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice. (Diary 1146).
There already is a schism within the Church (not yet formal) because the majority of 'Catholics' dissent from official Church teaching! Then there are the shepherds who openly dissent against Church teaching with impunity. http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/ So disobedience and dissent are the order of the day. The Church is like a ship taking in water. This is the reality! Mark 3v25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
