Charlie Johnston.

I'm hesitant to join the Harry Potter debate, but I suppose I should given that I have two pre-teens, one of whom devoured the whole book series when he was 8! I can see the arguments on both sides, but overall I'm less than enthusiastic about the comparisons with Tolkien and Lewis. For me a major difference is that whereas Narnia and Middle Earth are clearly wholly imaginary worlds, Harry grows up in a London suburb and Hogwarts is in Scotland. Tolkien's and Lewis's characters to some extent inhabit a kind of parallel universe in which there is no reason why the same laws of nature should apply, whereas Harry, Hermione and the others do magic in this world. From my perspective that changes the deal considerably, because the suggestion is that in our reality there can be 'white magic' exercised for good independently of God. That essentially is the same worldview as that of Reiki practitioners and other New Agers, and it is definitely problematic.

My other comment concerns the age-group targeted by H.P. There has been an incredible proliferation of semi- or indeed overly occult children's literature/films over the last decade or so, to such an extent that it is difficult to find fiction in a kids' library that doesn't deal either with pagan mythology or the demonic in some shape or form. I can say from our own family experience that this is a real concern. It is one thing for us to read or watch Harry Potter as adults who are able to distance themselves from the storyline and can assess it in the light of Christian doctrine. It is quite another for children to encounter it at the same time as they are preparing for First Communion - not to mention the vast majority of the population of the West who have no familiarity with the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

Gotcha, Bonaventure, I was a little purposefully obscure on that part would be to reveal too much about the simple act I was supposed to do. It was a political authority that stopped me, but a legitimate one, and one that was extremely unlikely to have noticed me at all - and what I was doing was not illegal in itself. The encounter was not unpleasant, but it did stop me from completing the particular act at that time. Since such intervention was so unlikely and so perfectly timed, I waited for further direction. I got it from Gabriel.

Please don't feel dense. I try to walk a line between what I can say and what I should not - and to talk of things that are often indescribable in themselves. I spent most of my life - and still much of it - plaintively asking my "visitors" to just tell me what they mean in plain language. I have come to see they have very good reason for acting as they do - for it helps facilitate us reaching out more strongly to God...helps build patience...and helps us realize we are not the titans we think we are. (You wanna get a thick dose of humility? Hang out with angels for a time and you will quickly see how little your gifts amount to in the grand scheme of things - and that all they are worth is to bring others to the joy and consolation of God). But, often I am clumsily obscure when talking of these things because I am clumsily obscure. Thanks for calling me on this one. I hope this clarification helps a little.

 

Absolutely, Charlie. I suppose I'm just trying to say - and I don't read you as contradicting this - that it would be naïve to assume that if 2017 is indeed the timeline for the Rescue, this necessarily means that the world (as opposed to the Church) will be through its travails by that point. Somehow I don't think that we're far enough along at the moment for Scripture to be fulfilled within a three-year timeframe ... but after all, what do I know about anything?!

 

Hee hee, Peter, I have said in private discussions with my visitors that, much as I appreciate the reprieve, there is a lot that has to be accomplished in a little over three years and we probably better get cracking if poor little souls like me are to get done what we are supposed to and get an occasional nap, too.

Also, Peter, you might want to look at my piece on the occult in which the comments exploded on the subject of Potter. One woman, from England, said she had read the idea of a society of people living hidden amongst the other British as a metaphor for English Catholicism which, since the Reformation, has had to live hidden many times for fear of their lives - and marginalized at most times. I had never thought of it before, but it is a canny observation.

But I fully agree with you in deploring the explosion in overtly occult literature for children - as opposed to fantasy literature. I consider the Twilight Series, for example, utterly execrable.

 

I suppose "good Catholics" are always free to decide things. The Vatican doesn't make itself some official arbiter of literature, popular or not, otherwise we would only have what the current Pope seems to desire to eliminate....clericalism.... where certain unwarranted authority is given over to men in particular positions that boost those positions to a greater respect than simply defined. But, given certain backgrounds in specialized study of morals or ethics, and depending on the more or less gifts in those areas by the individual students of theology, people can do their best to weigh differing opinions. So, then, we do have those reported letters by then Cardinal Ratzinger to a Potter critic, Kuby:

In a letter dated March 7, 2003 Cardinal Ratzinger thanked Kuby for her “instructive” book Harry Potter - gut oder böse (Harry Potter- good or evil?), in which Kuby says the Potter books corrupt the hearts of the young, preventing them from developing a properly ordered sense of good and evil, thus harming their relationship with God while that relationship is still in its infancy.

“It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly,” wrote Cardinal Ratzinger.

The letter also encouraged Kuby to send her book on Potter to the Vatican prelate who quipped about Potter during a press briefing which led to the false press about the Vatican support of Potter. At a Vatican press conference to present a study document on the New Age in April 2003, one of the presenters - Rev. Peter Fleetwood - made a positive comment on the Harry Potter books in response to a question from a reporter. Headlines such as “Pope Approves Potter” (Toronto Star), “Pope Sticks Up for Potter Books” (BBC), “Harry Potter Is Ok With The Pontiff” (Chicago Sun Times) and “Vatican: Harry Potter’s OK with us” (CNN Asia) littered the mainstream media.

In a second letter sent to Kuby on May 27, 2003, Cardinal Ratzinger “gladly” gave his permission to Kuby to make public “my judgement about Harry Potter.”

 

The number one reason why I chose not to have my children read the series was that there was an article going around in Catholic circles at the time of a letter from a former warlock. He stated emphatically that the spells in the series were true incantations and dangerous. That was good enough for me. The evil that 'sucks the soul' out of a person was my second reason. Even my sneaky son came to me and said he had started to read it and chose to put it down because that was way to scary for him.

 

I found too that within the realm of self appointed (and self anointed) representatives of Catholic "think" in so called Catholic blogdom (really cliques of atta boys).....it has gotten to the point where strong objections to the favorable opinion of such "Catholic experts" are met with immediate banning, never again to offer perhaps greater and more charitably offered evidence to the easily duped readers of said blogs. Often it can easily be noticed in such individuals that there is a greater susceptibility to literary entertainment of imaginations and curiosities than any real ability to judge effects upon souls.

 

Mama S, I certainly respect your decision. But the old "I was a former _______" is one of the oldest tropes in the book to try to discredit something. A few years after I became Catholic, an alarmed fundamentalist relative got me a book written by a "former Catholic priest" on the secret and hideous rites of the Catholic Church. It was a short book, but certainly lurid and hideous - probably actually written by someone from Chick Publications - those fun-loving fellows who dedicate their lives to anti-Catholic propaganda. Watch even the establishment media...they are constantly on the prowl for actual "Catholics" who will publicly attack basic points of Catholic doctrine.

As one who has spent time doing historical research for professional papers and award-winning work in investigative journalism, if something claims to be a "former" anything in a piece designed to discredit something, they darned well better have solid, documentable credentials to prove it or I just toss it out as a smear. Remember the fraudulent letters a few decades ago, purportedly from the president of Procter and Gamble, that the company was actually a satanic front?

That said, there are many good reasons to leave it be - and every parent's decision on what their children should read or be exposed to should be respected. It is tough enough being a parent in today's slimy culture without having busybodies second-guessing their judgments. My own hot button was watching what types of video games my kids brought into the house. Boy, did I pitch a few hissy fits and bust up certain games that were misogynistic or senselessly violent.

 

Peter, or whoever, shoot me down on my following premise where you see fit. I have contended for some time that the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary ushers in the 25 year era of peace that Our Lady of La Sallette spoke of in 1846. The Trirumph will/may be the "Ruscue" that Charlie speaks of, which comes about through the rightful 'consecration of Russia'. It seems highly plausible to me that our Lord desires a specific brief era of honor to his Blessed Mother, which would end the 'age of Mary' as St. Louis de Montfort called it. It would fullfill all of what Our Lady of Fatima foretold.

Then 'after 25 years of peace' man will have fallen back into sin, which will usher in the era of the anti-Christ and the great stuggle of the Christians climaxing with the 3 day's of darkness (the final purification of the evils in this world), thus bringing forth the 'new springtime of the church', which St. Pope JPII spoke of lasting 1000 years. I sense two tribulations. The one, which Mary is the main emphasis of refuge (which is what is taking place now) and the era of the anti-Christ, which brings forth the second coming of Christ and his 1000 year Eucharistic reign over his church on earth.

 

Only two groups of thought only eh Charles? Good one, it's funny that the word of the exorcists has been entirely left out.
"at that moment he slammed his fist on the desk. 'I am sick of hearing about Harry Potter,

Cardinal Ratzinger upon receiving a book critical of Harry Potter said in a letter to the German author in 2003 "It is good that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions which act unnoticed and by this does deeply disrupt Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly"

Fr Gabriel Amroth
Ex-Chief exorcist in Rome with over 50,000 exorcisms under his belt, the most experienced exorcist in the world
"You start off with Harry Potter, who comes across as a likeable wizard, but you end up with a devil. There is no doubt that the signature of the prince of darkness is clearly with these books" he also criticises the distorted morality in Rollings books, not only do they suggest that rules can be broken but even lying can be justified when they work to ones benefit

Speaker made positive remarks about Harry Potter, another priest who lives in the Caribbean and at that time had 17 years as an exorcist jumped up, slammed his fist on the table and spoke in a very loud forceful tone "Harry Potter is pure wickedness, I'm sick of hearing of Harry Potter, it's a gateway to the occult. I'm pretty big [that's for sure, he could play pro ball, big guy probably about 300lbs] I'm pretty big, another priest and I were sitting on a couch when a teenage boy maybe about 115 pounds picked the couch up and held it up by one leg. I speak to him in English he answers in English. I speak to him in Latin, he answers in Latin. I speak to him in Italian, he answers in Italian. I speak to him in Spanish, he answers in Spanish. I speak to him in German, he answers in German.
When I was excising him I asked where all this came from, he said [in a snarly voice] 'Harry Potter'. I had four cases in one day of people with demonic problems because of Harry Potter, I don't want to hear anything about Harry Potter. Not everyone gets possessed but watch out."
Maybe some aren't interested in listening to the prolife media comments, maybe some folks aren't much moved by the comments of an author and religious artist, maybe done folks can find their way to weesle around the words of Cardinal Ratzinger, but if we're not going to listen to the solemn warnings of the exorcists, the guys who actually fight the devil, exorcists from Mexico, Rome and the Caribbean, well then all I can say is that pride goes before the fall

 

Looking at mythical writings or movies one surely has to consider that the average viewer is most niave in the details of Christian truth. If one has a formed mind in the faith and practices it, you could watch or read Harry Potter or Narnia or Lord of the Rings and get a message that will not hinder your faith and may even help in a sort of 'victory' in overcoming the tribulations of our own experience. However, I feel, without having a formed conscience, which most kids and adults in this age do not have, the risk is very high that it will twist truth or at the very least question truths when heard in the light of Christ. Many cannot distinguish truth from fiction in todays world and thus are at the merciless had of satan.

 

Well, Mac, if I am trying to leave out the former exorcist's opposition to it I am doing a rather incompetent job of it, as I mentioned it myself in my post. Something else I left out was that Fr. Fleetwood, author of the Vatican document on the New Age and occult, was asked at a press conference again in 2005 about Cardinal Ratzinger's letter. Fleetwood said that was not directly from Ratzinger, but from staff assigned to answer his correspondence in his name.

Now, I have always said - and it is a well-known legal principle - that silence equals consent. Pope Benedict never corrected the words reported in this letter, so one would presume he consented to their accuracy. But he also never corrected Fleetwood's assertion, so one would presume he consented to that, too. Or maybe he just did not think it was significant enough to personally get involved on. In any case, your case is not nearly as clear as you might want it to be.

If your point is that good Catholics are free to make their own decision, I heartily agree, If it is that the series is condemned, it simply is not.

 

Pope Benedict did not endorse Cardinal Bertone's statement either. In fact the closest he came to any comment on it was his famous statement at Fatima on May 13th, 2010 when he said something to the effect that 'he would be decived if he thinks the Fatima messages has been fullfilled' and he prayed that it would be by its 100th anniversary in 2017. Do you realize how difficult, if not impossible it would have been for Pope Benedict to chide his head official on his statement? This would have shown complete disray in the Vatican at at time when it had so many other fires to put out. Pope Benedict did and said what he could in 2010 to make sure the faithful new the Fatima story has not been completed.

 

I think that is a shrewd point, Fatima. I have stayed away from something, not wanting to re-ignite a big argument again. It may surprise some, but those new snippets purported to be from the Fatima messages struck me as probably authentic. They are separate from the Third Secret, so it has nothing to do with what that secret says. But they struck me as authentic because they matched on very closely to a visitation and vision I was given on Dec. 7, 1995. Fatima is playing out before our very eyes right now.

 

Not only that Fatima, but I think Bertone' was egging him on. Kinda like a dare.
I did watch an interview by Raymond Aroya with the then Cardinal Ratzinger about the
3rd Secret. His first extended interview in English. Here it is: look at 36:40

 

This seems a very difficult one to call... Although I can certainly understand the logic behind this scenario, I'm not confident that any kind of coherent synthesis of prophetic sources is possible right now, especially if based on La Salette, for a number of reasons.

The whole paradox of La Salette is that officially the Church has always taken a mixed position, approving the 1846 apparitions as supernatural but not the 'secrets' subsequently written down by the two visionaries Maximin and Mélanie. This already makes things complicated, but what muddies the water further, even for those such as myself who believe that M & M were indeed given secrets by Our Lady, is that several non-identical versions of these secrets were written over the period 1851-1879. Most importantly for the present discussion, there is still no consensus as to the validity of the final (1879) version of Mélanie Calvat's 'secret' that contains both the reference to '25 years' and also the (in)famous sentence about Rome becoming the seat of the Antichrist.

For over a century opinion was fiercely divided over the 1879 publication (placed on the Index), with some seeing it is the result of Mélanie's over-active religious imagination, while others, particularly in the wake of the bombshell publication that was Léon Bloy's Celle qui pleure, saw her as basically martyred on the altar of French religious politics of the worst kind.

The recent discovery by French researcher Michel Corteville of the original 1851 versions of the secrets written down by the seers for the Pope and conserved in the Vatican archives has gone some way to rehabilitating Maximin and Mélanie to the extent that the basic outline of secrets was there in essence in 1851, meaning that Mélanie's 1879 publication cannot be considered a complete confabulation. Furthermore, the fact that the 1851 version is far shorter than the later one is no evidence against the latter, as Mélanie's claim was that the Blessed Mother specifically asked her to refrain from making certain things public until 1858.

On the other hand, however, we also have an intermediate version of Mélanie's secret published in 1872 (and probably datable back to 1860), which also omits the reference to 25 years and the seat of Antichrist, as well as the arresting opening diatribe against French priests who are described as 'cesspools of impurity'.

So - the basic question is this - how do we explain the fact that the 1879 version of Mélanie Calvat's secret includes (highly controversial) details which appear nowhere else. Two basic explanations seem possible: i) that MC was receiving ongoing communications from Heaven, as with Sister Lucia decades later, which find themselves incorporated in successive versions, or ii) Mélanie consciously or more probably unconsciously embellished the account.

In short, this one is a real headache for the specialists! My own view is that it is difficult if not impossible for scholarship to authenticate the full 1879 version and that it should be taken with a large dose of salt. The 1851 secrets of the two visionaries, on the other hand, seem absolutely bona fide , and in the absence of the fuller version sent to the Pope (and now lost) by Mélanie once her pre-1858 silence was over, the 1872 material is probably more solid than that of 1879.

Confused? You should be! I'll try to append the various versions for comparison so that you can see the differences and judge for yourselves.

 

Confused? You should be! I'll try to append the various versions for comparison so that you can see the differences and judge for yourselves.[/quote]

Secret of Mélanie Calvat, 1851 version

Secret which the Blessed Virgin gave me on the Mountain of La Salette on September 19, 1846

Secr[e]t.

Mélanie, I am going to tell you something which you will not tell anyone:

The time of the wrath of God has arrived!

If, when you say to the people what I have just told you, and what I will still ask you to say, if, after that, they do not convert, (if they do not do penance, and they do not stop working on Sunday, and if they continue to blaspheme the Holy Name of God), in a word, if the face of the earth does not change, God will take his revenge on the people, ungrateful and enslaved to the Devil.

My Son will make his power break forth! Paris, this city soiled by all kinds of crimes, will perish infallibly. Marseille will be destroyed in little time. When these things happen, disorder will be complete on the earth. The world will give itself over to its unholy passions.

The pope will be persecuted from all sides; they will shoot at him, they will want to put him to death, but they will not be able to do anything to him, the Vicar of God will triumph again this time.

Priests and Sisters, and the true servants of my Son will be persecuted, and many will die for the faith of Jesus-Christ.

A famine will reign at the same time.

After all these things happen, many will recognize the hand of God on them, will convert, and will do penance for their sins.

A great king will ascend to the throne, and will reign for some years. Religion will flourish again and spread all over the world, and there will be great abundance, the world, glad at not lacking anything, will again start its disorders, will abandon God, and will give itself over to its criminal passions.

[Among] the ministers of God, and the Spouses of Jesus-Christ, there will be some who will give themselves over to disorder, and this will be the [most] terrible thing.

Finally, hell will reign on earth. It will be then that the Antichrist will be born of a Sister, but woe to her! Many people will believe in him, because he will claim to have come from heaven, woe to those who will believe in him!

That time is not distant, twice 50 years will not go by.

My child, you will not say what I have just said to you. (You will not tell it to anybody, you will not say whether you must say it one day, you will not say what that it concerns), finally you will say nothing anymore until I tell you to say it!

I pray to Our Holy Father the Pope to give me his holy blessing.

Mélanie Mathieu, Shepherdess of La Salette, Grenoble, July 6, 1851.

Source: Découverte du secret de La Salette, R. Laurentin et M. Corteville, (Paris:Fayard, 2002) 46-49. Translation P.B.

 

Secret of Maximin Giraud, 1851

On September 19, 1846, we saw a beautiful Lady. We have never said that this lady was the Blessed Virgin but we have always said that it was a beautiful Lady.

I don't know if it was the Blessed Virgin or someone else. Today I believe that it was the Blessed Virgin.

This is what this Lady told me!

01 If my people continue, what I will tell you will happen sooner, if they change a little, it will be a little bit later

02 France has corrupted the universe, one day she will be punished

03 Faith will die out in France: three parts of France will no longer practise religion, or almost, the other one will practise it without practising it well

04 Then, after [that], the nations will be converted, the faith will come alive again everywhere

05 A great country in the north of Europe, now Protestant, will convert: with the help of this country all the other countries of the world will convert

06 Before all this happens, great trouble will happen, in the Church, and everywhere.

07 Then, after [that], our Holy Father the Pope will be perscuted.

08 His successor will be a pontiff who nobody expects.

09 Then after [that], a great peace will come, but it will not last long. A monster will come to disturb it.

10 All I am telling you here will happen in the other century, [at the] latest at 2000.

Maximin Giraud

(She told [me] to say it some time ago).

My most Holy Father, your holy blessing for one of your sheep.

Grenoble, July 3, 1851

--------
Although this text was officially discovered by Michel Corteville in the Vatican archives in 1999, its content is almost identical to that contained in the book Les Secrets de la Salette of 1872 (111-112) - a source to which I will return when discussing Mélanie Calvat - demonstrating that it was already in circulation in France less than a generation after being penned by Maximin G.

 

Mostly France-centric, and mostly in the past now I tend to deduce... WWI and WWII most likely, and a president of France long since dead now.

 

I never found much wrong with Harry Potter apart from the fact that after a while it becomes mind numbingly boring. Which, since it is for kids is what I deserve for reading it.

My granny used to tell us all kinds of stories about witches and fairies and ghosts when we were very young. We loved every second of it and believed every word of it. I don't think it did any harm.

I can't read it as a deep moral tale. Well at least not a deep moral tale. ..and its not exactly great literature.

Sorry don't let me interrupt. I couldn't resist throwing in my two cents worth.