This is an interpretation. Another interpretation would be the prophets such as Mohammad and John Smith. Inventors of Islam, LDS and Mormonism. People can still buy and sell, which contradicts this theory. The biggest spread heresy of Church history is Arianism. My understanding is that the church had almost fell under this except it was saved at Nicea at the direction of Constantine. Under your theory the true church would be all those who did not fall for Arianism. And yet, we still considered those under the spell of Arianism part of the Church until the council of Nicea. In those days, the laity who attended churches professing Arianism could not read let alone write. Which made them innocent of following the heresy, unless they had the faculties to understand both sides and chose unwisely. The heresy existed from late in the third century until 357 AD, roughly 60 years. Which means many people died believing this heresy, do you believe they are condemned? The idea that God is an absolutist in terms and doesn't give the church time to work things out IMO goes contrary to the nature of God. Sometimes the angel needs to be wrestled and suffering endured.
PNF, Your accusation that certain supposed Eucharistic Miracles are fake and contrived is possible in today's world of electronic fakery. But to assume that a closer examination of one such claim was proven false, does not mean all are false. Your attempt to convince us that you believe the Novus Ordo is valid, while constantly bringing up doubts as to its efficaciousness grows wearisome, at least for me. And on this the first day I've returned after a brief sojourn. Yeesh! I do love you brother, but... O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
How do you square what you said with CCC 675-677? A "final trial" that the Church must pass through (like the passover). In which there is a "religious deception" that will "shake the faith of many believers." An apostasy from the truth, at the highest levels of the Church (Akita and Garabandal). The Antichrist will lead the "Church'' into this false worship where "man glorifies himself in place of God." The Church will only enter the glory of the Kingdom by following the Lord in his death and Resurrection. Yes, the Gates of Hell will not prevail. But just as Christ died and was in the tomb for 3 days, His Church following Him will also appear to die. This is the Catechism, not my interpretation. So what is the mechanism by which all of this occurs? The Church's ultimate trial 675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575 676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577 677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580 573 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12. 574 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20. 575 Cf. 2 Th 2:4-12; I Th 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; I Jn 2:1 8, 22. 576 Cf. DS 3839. 577 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21. 578 Cf. Rev 19:1-9. 579 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4. 580 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pt 3:12-13.
I'm not understanding the contradiction. The buying and selling is related to spiritual currency in the "economy of salvation" created by the Sacraments as the legal tender. The deceived people will not be able to "buy or sell"(i.e., receive the counterfeit Sacraments) unless they consent to the iniquities taught by the false Church. The false hierarchy will manipulate the poor deceived Catholics. While outside the counterfeit context, the traditional Sacraments are still available. Those who seek out those opportunities and refuse to fall for the deceptions of the Beast constitute the faithful remnant, the Immaculate Bride. If people back in the 300-500 AD era were aware of the difference between the Arian heresy and Nicene Catholicism, and they chose Arianism, then they would be formal heretics and held accountable for that. But if people were truly ignorant of the difference and did not understand that they were sinning, then they would not be punished. With the end times Beast Church, the endpoint of which is the Bergoglian Synodal Church, we are talking about obvious evils that people are consenting to. The synodal church teaches that homosexual couples, as such, can receive a blessing from Church authorities. The synodal church teaches that divorce and remarriage is not always a mortal sin and people who live in that state can continue to receive Communion. I could go on. But these things should be obviously wrong for any real Catholic. And most people who call themselves Catholic and go along with (consent to) this kind of thing, are doing so with full knowledge and will. They choose an up-to-date moral code over the Apostolic moral code. They will be punished for this. So there are certain things in the end times "trial" that Catholics will have the moral agency (free will) to make the right choices. If they don't make those correct choices, the result will be varying degrees of spiritual blindness, until the Warning.
Mario, I love you too. Thank you for saying that. I have said what I said. No need to argue about it. You obviously don't agree. We shall very soon see what the truth is. Take care.
You don't buy or sell sacraments. They are gifts from above. Show me where I can buy and sell sacraments using my spiritual currency please. There is so much that goes contrary to this in the church, it would be known as simony. This is what I am getting at, it isn't cut and dry. Many in the church have no clue what is going on. Some people genuinely believe something is good and that they are fighting for Truth when in fact they aren't. Only to be corrected on the other side. I agree that what you are saying are sins, no question. I agree that this is coming from the top in the church. A full challenge has been made against the historical teachings of the Catholic church. But these things also get worked out over time. Just as Arianism was defeated, I have no doubt that modernism will be defeated as well. Many children have grown up being programmed with an entirely different view of faith based on modernism. To suggest that there is only a pure church and heretics gets away from my point about struggle. Struggle is inherent to Catholic teaching. Even in ones personal life a person could be entirely anti-catholic only to find themselves entirely Catholic a few years later. This happens both personally and collectively. I agree entirely.
You believe we are already in this? I surmise this is your position as you mentioned earlier that you believe that Pope Francis is the False Prophet.
Not simony. The "economy of salvation" or the "sacramental economy" is discussed in great depth in the CCC 1076-1209. The coin of the realm is the Sacred Host. Grace is received. Filling up your spiritual wallet. Grace is lost when a mortal sin is committed. The spiritual wallet is emptied. That is the basic idea. Again, not my idea. It is in the Catechism. But some things are "cut and dry." Catholics should know that some things are mortal sins. They should not consent to them much less commit them. When their Church leader, their Pope, promises a new world where "all are welcome," run back to Apostolic tradition. God will give enough grace for people to see what they need to see. But the people must cooperate with that grace. They cannot be complacent. As Our Lord made clear in the Parable of the Wheat and the Cockle, the pilgrim Church on earth is a mixture of the true faithful and the false brethren. Those terms are more fully explained by St. Augustine in the City of God, where he contrasts the two cities living as apparent Christians. But this mixture will have an end, as explained in the Parable. The final reckoning is the Last Judgement. Yes, a person can always convert, but most people will not. Search for and read St. Leonard of Port Maurice "On the Fewness of the Saved." That is true Catholicism. You can find the same sentiments in many Saints. The opportunity for salvation is available to all, but few will cooperate with the graces required to achieve it.
No question about the divine economy. But nowhere in the deposit of faith have I ever read that when one consumes the sacred host it is akin to putting a coin in a vending machine by which one receives graces. Again this is spiritual simony. The host is a gift, freely given and freely taken. If I go to church five times a day to receive the host, it doesn't necessarily mean I get more graces. The host is a means to connect with God. Also, it says in Revelation that only those with the mark of the beast will be able to buy and sell. By your own words this means that only those with the mark of the beast will be able to receive the eucharist. As well,you imply that selling is akin to losing grace. This means according to your definition that those who do not take the mark of the beast will not be able to lose grace. As they wont be able to sell (lose) their graces. I agree with this entirely. However this does not conclude that there is a pure church and heretics. Judgement is not entirely based on intellectual choices. The church is an aggregate of sinners working their way to God. At the end everyone will be judged and their culpability will be based on their capability. This is worked between God and each individual.
But the false prophet doesn't die before the two witnesses. Who do you believe to be the two witnesses?
Your interpretation of what the Cathechism says here is only your interpretation. I read it differently. You said there will be an "apostasy from the Church at the highest levels of the Church", and that that is the religious deception that will shake the faith of many believers. You said Akita and Garabandal say this. Please provide the exact quotes from the messages that say so. The Bible says in Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians: "Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." So clearly here you see that the antichrist will set himself up as being God himself, working great signs and wonders to convince the world that he is God. This is the great religious deception to come. What the Catechism is warning strongly against is the false belief that God will come and establish the Kingdom here on earth, a worldly kingdom where everyone will be happy and all their problems will be solved here. It seems that this is what the antichrist will promise: that he is God, and he will make the world wonderful for all who worship him. The Catechism says no, the only way the Kingdom of God will be established is after the Church has followed Christ in His passion and death, to rise again with Him when Jesus returns in the Last Judgment. The earth will then be destroyed and the true Kingdom of God will be established. Then will the Church triumph. Many people have begun interpreting the Church's following of Christ's passion and death as the Church hierarchy apostasizing and the Church seeming to disappear for a while. This seems like a terrible parallel that doesn't make sense. Christ was an innocent victim, betrayed by one of His own apostles, yes, but put to death by the world authority because of the hatred and rejection of the Jews. He was put to death because the Jews refused to recognize Him as God. So a parallel that would make much more sense is that the world, including many of the faithful, reject the true Faith and turn instead to this false god (the antichrist). They will then persecute the remaining faithful Church so brutally that the Church will appear to have been vanquished...at which point Christ Himself must return to rescue His bride and destroy the antichrist (Satan) once and for all. Then the Church will rise with Christ in the Last Judgment. When you say my belief that the Mass will ultimately be restored to what it should be (this is already in process in parishes with faithful new priests) isn't true because of what the Catechism says, again, I think it's a misinterpretation. The Catechism says "The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world."580 It is saying here that the Kingdom of God will not be established here on earth by a slow ascending glory of the Church. The Kingdom of God will come after the Last Judgment and the passing of the world. There's nothing in there that says the Mass will not be restored to the beauty, reverence and meaning it is supposed to have, before the antichrist comes. Perhaps it won't, but my hope, based on what I'm seeing in the reviving Faith of the young and their longing for Tradition, is that the Mass will continue to be reformed and the ugly church buildings will continue to be replaced by beautiful, reverent, sacred churches that point once again to the glory of God.
From what I have read and understood, it is not possible for a qualified specialist to mistake a fungal growth for a blood cell or for a piece of myocardial tissue. Yes it would be possible for contamination to occur such that human DNA could be detected (although I understood DNA amplification has not been successful), but very unlikely that a sample could be contaminated by blood cells (which continued to survive ex vivo for many years). And it would be impossible in my view for contamination to occur with a complex mixture of myocardial (heart) tissue components, where even the carbohydrate fibres of the bread accidents of the Eucharist are meshed in with the human tissue components, as determined by microscopy examination. I think in the case of the Buenos Aires miracle the forensic specialist responsible for the examination had a conversion, further evidence of the authenticity of the miracle.
It's quite some while since a topic has garnered such conversation on the forum and it certainly has made me think and pray. It also stirred up so many memories for me from years ago. When my mother died from cancer I found her old prayer book battered and worn and tied together with tape. It was such a little cheap old thing called, 'My Catholic Prayer Book'. I think they made them in the millions and it was clear that this was her everything. But she really had such an unshakeable Faith. With it she raised ten children and remained Faithful to her marriage for 52 years. I never heard her tell a lie. She was rock solid honest. But perhaps notably I never heard her say a bad word about anyone; quite a feat. When she was dying in quite a lot of pain I asked her if what she was going through ever caused her to doubt the existence of God? She looked at me in genuine shock, a certain horror and said, ' How could anyone think such a thing? That would be mad!!' This made me laugh. But she was tried by Satan as she fell ill and went through the death process as everyone is in a very special way at that time as she went towards her Final Agony. We are, all of us, going through such a Great Trial at the minute with all that is going on in the Church. Someone wrote that these times would try the Faith even of the Great Saints. Even of a Catherine of Sienna. In the usual journey of a Christian soul Faith is tested. But in these Dark Days of affliction and confusion the trial is a hundred times worse. But so too are the gateways of grace and sanctification. The dark Seas on which we float can carry us to highest sanctity if we let them. All we have to do if keep our eyes set in prayer on the Cross and on Christ. Christ who is our rock. In these Dark Days though the Faith of previous generations returns to inspire and guide me. My mother with her simple prayer book. My grandmother who held the rosary so constantly in her hands that they seemed like other fingers. I only know that I was born into the Catholic Faith and in the Catholic Faith I will die. A loyal child of Our Holy Mother the Church. Let dark days come, let dark days go my eyes are fixed on the rock of Christ/
https://perpetualeucharisticadorati...-bosco-two-pillars-of-the-eucharist-our-lady/ The Dream of St. John Bosco – the two pillars of the Eucharist & Our Lady THE EUCHARIST AND THE IMMACULATE VIRGIN MARY ST. JOHN (“DON”) BOSCO’S VISION OF THE TWO COLUMNS On May 30, 1862, Don Bosco recounted a dream he had: “In the midst of this endless sea, two solid columns, a short distance apart, soar high into the sky. One is surmounted by a statue of the Immaculate Virgin, at whose feet a large inscription reads: ‘Auxilium Christianorum’ (‘Help of Christians’). The other, far loftier and sturdier, supports a Host of proportionate size, and bears beneath it the inscription: ‘Salus credentium’ (‘Salvation of believers’). “The flagship commander – the Roman Pontiff – standing at the helm, strains every muscle to steer his ship between the two columns, from whose summits hang many anchors and strong hooks linked to chains. The entire enemy fleet closes in to intercept and sink the flagship at all costs. They bombard it with everything they have: books and pamphlets, incendiary bombs, firearms, cannons. The battle rages ever more furious. Beaked prows ram the flagship again and again, but to no avail, as, unscathed and undaunted, it keeps on it course. At times, a formidable ram splinters a gaping hole in its hull, but immediately, a breeze from the two columns instantly seals the gash. “Meanwhile, enemy cannons blow up; firearms and beaks fall to pieces; ships crack up and sink to the bottom. In blind fury, the enemy takes to hand-to-hand combat, cursing and blaspheming. Suddenly the Pope falls, seriously wounded. He is instantly helped up, but struck a second time, dies. A shout of victory rises from the enemy, and wild rejoicing seeps their ships. But no sooner is the Pope dead than another takes his place. The captains of the auxiliary ships elected him so quickly that the news of the Pope’s death coincides with that of his successor’s election. The enemy’s self-assurance wanes. “Breaking through all resistance, the new Pope steers his ship safely between the two columns; first, to the one surmounted by the Host, and then the other, topped by the statue of the Virgin. At this point, something unexpected happens. The enemy ships panic and disperse, colliding with and scuttling each other. “Some auxiliary ships, which had gallantly fought alongside their flagship, are the first to tie up at the two columns. Many others, which had fearfully kept far away from the fight, stand still, cautiously waiting until the wrecked enemy ships vanish under the waves. Then they too head for the two columns, tie up at the swinging hooks and ride safe and tranquil beside their flagship. A great calm now covers the sea. ” (Memoirs, Vol. VII. Pages 107-108).
Thank God we cannot choose any side we want, since Jesus Christ established the Church in such a way that whatever is bound on earth will be bound in heaven. There is only one truth, and it has been revealed by God himself to mankind. The problem is that we need communion with the Church and we need the sacraments. Padre Pio understood this very well when he accepted the obedience of the hierarchy because that is the temptation: to believe oneself superior and go against it. There are those who lack the eyes or ears to understand this. The only way is to enter into communion and accept that the Church is holy because Jesus Christ is its head, even though it is full of sinners (all of us). God does not need a champion to defend him. He has a perfect plan, and his Providence is the only thing that can lead us to perfection through Charity.
A lot to absorb in these last posts. I think there is good intent by all parties. But I also see personal interpretations being presented as church teaching. The Catechism (CCC 675–677) teaches that the Church will face a final trial of persecution and deception, but not apostasy or corruption of her doctrine. St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI explained that this “deception” refers to worldly systems that replace God — not to the Catholic Church itself becoming false. The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit and will always be the true Bride of Christ until His return (see CCC 869, 890–891). She may be purified and persecuted — but she will never fall or become the “Harlot of Babylon.” The Church Militant is the battlefield. It’s where grace and sin collide. It’s where saints are forged—not yet crowned. Yes, even those who act in demonic ways may be part of her visible structure. But they do not define her essence. To say the Church is false is to confuse the failings of her members with the nature of the Bride of Christ. She is bruised, not broken. She is militant, not defeated. And she remains the vessel through which grace flows—even when her members falter.
