Did Pope Francis show his hand on Medjugorje?

Well the reason why I asked was that I was praying to Our Lady about you and was shown you as being a priest and working in conjunction with others in a well organised scheme to undermine Medugorje, 'In support of our Bishop'.

That you did not come to the forum by accident, it is all part of your 'work'.
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I have a very bad feeling about this and have had for some time. I think this is the active work of the devil.

 

Why is Gossip bad?
(references: Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Humans have reason. This reason creates an internal life. This is what makes us different from the animals. (i.e. Animals feel pain, but they do not suffer – humans are able to recognize that they are suffering more than they were before and that their pain could go on into the future; animals cannot realize that. Animals feel happiness, but they cannot experience joy. This all stems from an “interior life” caused by the ability to reason.)
Our ability to reason has given us the capability and desire to produce words. Words not merely to command (like the barking of a dog), but words to express the interior life we experience. So there is something already significant about words. They are the means by which we reveal something about ourselves that is not visible in the body and this allows us to enter deeper into communion with one another.
Adam and Eve after the fall, immediately begin to slander one another when they are asked to answer for their actions. They began to hide not only their nakedness, but their interior life as well, because they were immediately aware of the fact that they could be used by one another. In another story in Genesis, The Tower of Babel, communication again is altered by the fall (sin). Communication through words is more important than most Christians recognize.
This importance of a reputation is also more than one would think. A reputation is “the truth of our interior life as others understand it.” When someone reveals themselves through words, they are choosing to reveal their interior life to that person. That interior life is our great human dignity. An abuse of the interior life of another person is an abuse against their dignity as a person. It is an abuse against the very core of what it means to be human. This is why gossip can become a grave offense (a mortal sin). You become responsible for killing the interior life of another person in the eyes of others.
Gossip: any time when you reveal the facts of the interior life of another person.
Slander: Same as gossip, but the things that are “revealed” are not true or are said with a malicious intent. Slander is either done intentionally or unintentionally (ignorance…you believe something to be true of a person, but you have no proof), but either way, you want the person to whom you are speaking to think badly of the person you are revealing.
Detraction: any time when you reveal the true facts of the interior life of another person without an objectively valid reason. (CCC2477) An objectively valid reason would be someone just confessed to you that they murdered their grandmother, you can (and should) tell the police. However, if someone confesses to you that they killed their grandmother and you tell the authorities and then tell everyone else you meat, that is not a valid reason.
Calumny: this is the same as slander: telling a falsehood about someone else. This includes lying and telling things that you may believe to be true, but of which you have no proof. (Example, spreading a rumor that someone hates you and is trying to ruin your life because you can just “feel” it. You have no proof of this other than your “gut” impression. That is not a valid enough reason to “murder” the person’s reputation.)
Calumny is of a higher gravity than detraction, but the gravity of the situation determines the gravity of the sin. This is why you must examine the intention of your heart.
“Delectatio Morosa”: Delighting in the faults of others (i.e. making fun of celebrities).
Idle Chatter: speaking without revealing your interior life; wasting time; time in conversation that has no purpose. We all have the responsibility of building the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Every moment is a gift from God and we are called to use this time wisely. This is not a sin, but it is an attachment and is not productive.
Two excellent books to read on this topic of “attachment” are
Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Salles
Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila

http://catholic360.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/gossip-and-slander/

 

Brada kaza jarca ne pako mudroznanca.

 

I would not quote the entire section, what I am saying spoke Bishop Zanic and Bishop Peric therefore I am not a greater sinner than they are.

 

People often see what they want to see. But I have no intention to change your opinion about Medjugorje, nor am I capable of doing so. Nor are you able to change my opinion. I believe that all of you people are open heart to Jesus and the Church.
When the Church express its negative decision regarding the authenticity of Medjugorje, and through the years when you find out some things that I am saying here, do not let this knowledge depart you from the Church and religion, because only then if you are alienated from the Church Satan will fulfill its task.

 

If the beard were all, the goat might preach.
Mere formal signs of being an authority does not make you one.

Yes, it's true

 

Rino,

What pride you have. I have repeatedly said I will be obedient to the proper church authorities. The real question is, will you?

 

I am following the discussion for sometime now and I would like to comment something. What Rino is saying is not a gossip or untruth. It is known that the seers form Medjugorje own a number of properties and that their status has improved according to the benefits of this business.
This business, for center of spirituality is own by Marija Pavlović



and this business is run by a company in collaboration with Ivan Dragicevic



It is clear that this guys have made a lot of money with the pilgrim business in Medjugorje.

Where is the lie about it?

Now, the Church, before declaring an apparition as authentic has to rule out that the people involved are not getting any profit from it.

Obviously this is not the case and even Ivan was declaring in an interview that making money was not a sin. But probably he forgot the requirements of the Church to declare authentic "his" apparition.



Is it now clear?

 

All will be clear in time. I believe I have been a recipient of the fruits from Medj. Here in Chicago, almost all the good catholic stuff has been fruits from Medj. Sorry. I repeat again. I will be obedient to the proper church authorities, my question to Jose, David, and Rino is, will you?

 

I think it is always wise in discernment of such matters to go by the rule,

'Go for the ball , not the player'.
That goes for discernment of everyone. The Church when it laid down its laws under the 8th commandment , 'Love your neighbours as yourself' mentions detraction, the sin or publicising the faults or sins of your brothers and sisters that you know or believe to be true.

The Cathechism does not say, 'Except in the case of seerers or supposed seerers.

We should kick the ball not the players. If the ball is false there should be more enough evidence of this in the messages and visions themselves without kicking the visionaries themselves.

As to whether or not they have done is wrong they will answer for it to God.

I find these personal attacks extremely distasteful and very,very uncharitable.

I repeat ,go for the ball not the players.

 

I am already a member of God's obedient flock. If the Church in your opinion brought positive rating on Medjugorje, which is unrealistic, will I submit that decision. I will, but I'll still keep my right to not believe that there is anything supernatural going on, because I'm not as a believer obligated to believe in private apparitions, and with that my beliefs will not be in contradiction with God and the Church.

 

The same here.

 

Yes, Padraig, but it was questioned whether or not the seers are making profit from the apparition and I think it is not uncharitable to show that, indeed, this is the truth.

 

Rino you replied:
" If the Church in your opinion brought positive rating on Medjugorje"

I said if the proper church authorities brought positive rating , not my opinion. Please, don't twist my words.

 

If you literally watch you are nowhere mentioned the positive outcome. It's about context, I assume your opinion. As for the Church, is also from context are understood what I was saying.

 

Detraction is the sin of exposing the truth, or what we believe or assume to be the truth at expense of charity. The Church teaches that this is far too high a price to pay.

Here the Golden Rule applies, 'Do unto others....'

 

Padraig, I am just exposing an hoax. It is like exposing a crime. Here nobody talks in terms of charity. And the Church should know, as I think it knows, the profit made by the visionaries, and this information is not the result of gossip or calumny. To expose this part of the story it is not a sin against charity, it is rather a duty to tell the truth to uncover the falsehood. It is not about what I think the truth is, it is just exposing the facts that Marija Pavlović owns that center and Ivan Dragicevic make money out of this pilgrim business. Those are not assumptions, they are proven facts.

 

Rino,
Here was my comment, what didn't you understand?
All will be clear in time. I believe I have been a recipient of the fruits from Medj. Here in Chicago, almost all the good catholic stuff has been fruits from Medj. Sorry. I repeat again. I will be obedient to the proper church authorities, my question to Jose, David, and Rino is, will you?

 

Thanks Jose. I suppose Marija should never had anything to do with that center and Ivan should be losing money. I think you and Rino have made your point now go and take a deep breath. You may be right, but you may be wrong. Too much pride here between the two of you.