Did Pope Francis show his hand on Medjugorje?

quote="David Wilson, post: 47518, member: 1718"]Peter B,

I don't know about E. Michael Jones's other writings. I do agree with him on Medjugorje. I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed when the Vatican ruling comes down on Medjugorje. That's too bad but that is what happens when one puts stock in an unapproved apparition that has been looked upon negatively by the local bishop from the get go.

With regard to the demonic aspect of Medjugorje, many people seem to be unaware that one of the charges brought against laicizied priest Tomislav Vlasic, the primary Medjugorje publicist, was trafficking in spirits ("dubious doctrine, the manipulation of consciences, suspect mysticism and disobedience towards legitimately issued orders" was the fulll charge). Hence, the demonic infestation at Medjugorje. As St. John of the Cross said, "The devil rejoices when people seek private revelations." That is so because they are so easy to fabricate.


Bishop of Mostar Ratko Peric, responsible for Medjugorje, has stated, "The numerous absurd messages, lies, falsehoods and disobedience associated from the beginning with the events and 'apparitions' of Medjugorje, all refute every claim of authenticity."

Until the Vatican ruling comes down, I will remain obedient to the local bishop.[/quote]
It's quite true that the devil has been present at Medugorje...and quite openly too. Something that fascinates but doesn't surprise me. For where Mary is present Satan is also present and we see this in the Book of Genesis.

Genesis 3:15


And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


This is often shown in Marian representations such as Guadalupe with the devil shown as a snake biting Mary's heel.




When I was visiting I noticed this in several ways. As soon as I got of the bus I was shouted at and cursed by three complete strangers who pulled up beside me in a car, I met a possessed woman and I had a vision of three Satanic Princes tied up to pillars who wished to destroy the site.

I think anyone who has a devotion to Mary gets the grace of being able to discern Satan much more quickly in the world around us. This is a good thing , rather than a bad thing floor its better to see than be blind.

Shortly after the apparitions in Lourdes there was clear evidence of Satanic influence in Lourdes, France. Two local children who claimed to have apparitions showed clear signs of demonic possession and the devil attempted even to appear as the Virgin Mary at the grotto in front of a crowd but failed.

Even at the monastery I go to mass everyday I have seen spooky stuff sometimes very spooky. The devil does not like Mary, Mary does not like the devil and this is to be expected. It is just like it says on the scriptural tin , the two of them fighting like cats and dogs...and so it will be till the end of time....

I know this is a subject most people do not like to think too much about and I don't blame them. But I must admit I remain endlessly fascinated by it and have been since I was a child. It is so interesting that there is a real spiritual war going on all round us, With Mary as our General on one side and the fallen angel , Lucifer on the other.



Book of Revelation, 11:19—12:1-18.[3]

11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. 4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.​

7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael* and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, 8but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9The huge dragon, the ancient serpent,* who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.e 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:​

“Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night.​

11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.​

12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time.​

13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year. 15 The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current. 16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth. 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. 18 It took its position on the sand of the sea.''​

 

I live in Mostar. The apparitions in Medjugorje here mostly considered heresy. Mary visionaries often portrayed as savior light, but is not that the role of Jesus. Visionaries, in Mostar and the surrounding area have a lot of private property, and the origin of their wealth is the money that comes in a variety of ways of pilgrims into their private pockets. Medjugorje, to date, there is still no one recognized miracle, and every couple of days on their portals published various miracles. God always heals completely, incomplete healing are not divine fruit. Most people who live in Medjugorje, do not talk to each other, all in a dispute over land and property, everyone there looks only financial interest. The entire region lives of exploitation of the pilgrims, who are mostly from Italy and Ireland.

 

Rino, have you ever been to Medjugorje? Healings are Jesus' business. I was healed of a sleeping problem. I had to use a machine at night to breath. Now I don't. I was healed of this, but not my other things. Many things are passed down through generations. I'm sorry you see the negative side of Medjugorje. I'd say 80 million visitors says a lot about the wonderful happenings there. There are recognized miracles there. One today on www.spiritdaily.com MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HEALED.

 

it seems that he lives 5 miles from there. so he is offering one local perspective.

 

Father Malachi Martin once wrote the following....
“The Devil fears the Virgin Mary more, not only than men and angels but, in a certain sense, than God himself. It is not that the wrath, the power and the hatred of God are not infinitely greater than those of the Blessed Virgin, since Mary’s perfections are limited: it is because, in the first place, Satan, being proud, suffers infinitely more from being overcome and punished by the little, humble servant of God, her humility humiliating him more than the divine power; and secondly, because God has given Mary such great power over devils that, as they have often been obliged to admit, in spite of themselves, through the mouths of possessed persons, they are more afraid of one of her sighs of grief over some poor soul, than of the prayers of the saints, and more daunted by a single threat from her than by all their other torments”

I find this intereting too:

Is Medjugorje behind the talk of Satan inside the Vatican? Exorcist's square off.

One calls Medjugorje "A Fortress against Satan" The other - "The work of the Devil and a diabolical deceit."

Well known Vatican Excorcists, Father Gabriele Armoth and Bishop Andrea Gemma, sound off on Medjugorje and Satan.

Yesterday as reported in Catholic News Agency, Father Amorth, a renowned exorcist and vigorous supporter of Medjugorje ( He called it a "Fortress against Satan") in Rome released a book of memoirs in which he declares to know of the existence of Satanic sects in the Vatican where participation reaches all the way to the College of Cardinals.

In the book of memoirs released in February, the noted Italian exorcist Fr. Gabriele Amorth affirmed that "Yes, also in the Vatican there are members of Satanic sects." When asked if members of the clergy are involved or if this is within the lay community, he responded, "There are priests, monsignors and also cardinals!

The allegations of Fr Amorth – who, has said in the past that the scenes in the 1973 film The Exorcist are “substantially exact” – are recorded in Father Amorth: Memoirs of an Exorcist. My life fighting against Satan, a series of interviews edited by Marco Tosatti. He asked Amorth if Pope Benedict XVI himself knew of the existence of Satanic sects in the Vatican.“Of course he was informed ” replied Amorth. “But he does what he can. It's a horrifying thing."

But Father Armoth, in an extensive interview (here) finds a remedy against Satan in Medjugore -"Surely. Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life."

"Work of the devil" and a "diabolical deceit"

Now interestingly, one year ago, another former top Vatican exorcist Bishop Andrea Gemma denounced the alleged visions of Our Lady in the Bosnian town of Medjugorje as the "work of the devil" and a "diabolical deceit". The UK Daily Mail reported that the Vatican Excorcist has rejected claims made by the six Bosnian 'seers' that they have seen the Virgin Mary more than thousands times over the past 27 years" Bishop Andrea Gemma, 77, once the Vatican's top exorcist, told a magazine in Italy: "In Medjugorje everything happens in function of money: Pilgrimages, lodging houses, sale of trinkets.

"This whole sham is the work of the Devil. It is a scandal." He predicted that the Vatican would soon crack down on the group.

Father Armorth on Medjugorje

Father Amorth is a famous exorcist but few are aware that he is also one the most outspoken supporters of the special events taking place in Medjugorje. Medjugorje is a town in Bosnia where for over 28 years the Blessed Mother is said to be appearing to six "Visionaires". Father Amorth speaking about the apparitions said "Surely. Medjugorje is a fortress against Satan. Satan hates Medjugorje because it is a place of conversion, of prayer, of transformation of life."

"I always understood Medjugorje as a continuation of Fatima. According to Our Lady’s words in Fatima, if we had prayed and fasted, there would not have been World War II. We have not listened to her and therefore there was a war. Also here in Medjugorje, Our Lady often calls to prayer for peace. In her apparitions, Our Lady always presents herself under another name to show the goal of her apparitions.

At Lourdes, she presented herself as the Immaculate Conception, in Fatima as the Queen of the Holy Rosary. Here in Medjugorje, Our Lady presented herself as the Queen of Peace. We all remember the words “Mir, mir, mir” (peace, peace, peace) that were written in the sky at the very beginning of the apparitions. We see clearly that humanity is running the risk of war, and Our Lady insists on prayer and on Christian life to attain peace. Medjugorje is really a place where one learns to pray, but also to sacrifice oneself, where people are converted and change their lives. The influence of Medjugorje is worldwide. It is enough to think about how many prayer groups came about thanks to the inspiration of Medjugorje."

What are Catholics to make of the debate?

Medjugorje has not been without controversy and from the beginning Clergy and lay persons have vigorously debated the phenomenon's authenticity and its proper place in the Catholic Church. And today, now it seems we have two famous Vatican Exorcists, arguably the most qualified person to recognize a Satanic presence, squaring off and deeply split about the true spiritual nature off Medjugorje. Is the work of Satan or is Medjugorje a Heavenly Grace?

Should lay Catholics begin to ask what secrets are kept about Medjugorje? Should Catholics know more about the debates taking place deep inside the Vatican over the strange phenomenon, the elephant in the middle of the room, known as Medjugorje, that won't go away.

 

<quote> Bishop Andrea Gemma, 77, once the Vatican's top exorcist, told a magazine in Italy: "In Medjugorje everything happens in function of money: Pilgrimages, lodging houses, sale of trinkets. </quote>

Ah come on now. Is that the sum total of his argument against the authenticity of the apparitions?

Perhaps he'd like to explain how the logistics of housing and feeding millions of pilgrims could be managed without pilgrimages and building lodging houses? As for the sale of trinkets, can he point to an approved apparition site that doesn't have such things? Anyway I like to be able to buy rosaries etc. to bring back to people.

Whatever the Church rules I will obey. I have perfect peace with their decision: God's Will be done in this, as in all things.

 

I happened to live in Yugoslavia when it was still one country. At that time the goverment was in the hands of the communists and people were afraid to talk about their religion. Why would those children claim they saw the Virgin Mary? At that time there was absolutely no gain for them.

 

Thanks Rino for sharing that. As someone who lives in Mostar you know firsthand what I have always suspected: Medjugorje is highly suspect.

 

Have you visited Medugorje yourself Rino?

(I think actually it is 17.5 miles rather than five from Mostar)

 

I'm not very impressed with Father Amorth. He acts like he is the only authority on the diabolical and on Medjugorje. He acts like his opinion on Medjugorje is more important that the ruling of the local Bishop of Mostar. Father Amorth strikes me as a sensationalist, in the vein of Malachi Martin. I agree with what Mark Shea once wrote concerning Father Amorth:

"The problem is, Fr. Amorth’s views and pronouncements about things have been rather erratic over the years. Jimmy Akin, for instance, had to delicately point out that it’s rather reckless to declare, as Fr. Amorth did that “all the Nazis were possessed”. Also, there is his preposterous claim”–in his book An Exorcist Tells His Story–to have performed thirty THOUSAND exorcisms in a nine year period[!] That’s nine exorcisms PER DAY for nine years–Sundays included!”​

​

A good Mottramist folk hero worshipper may be able to persuade himself that doubts about such a claim signal the presence of one weak in faith and itching to overthrow Real Catholic Orthodoxy. But those of us in the reality-based community think it more likely that Fr. Gabriele is one of those people inclined to make outsize claims in a fit of passion. Not wicked really, just inclined toward Big Fish tales. It can even be charming. But reliable it ain’t.​

​

The problem is, when you give somebody inclined to outsize claims a global forum and anoint him a spokesman for Real Catholic Orthodoxy[TM], his Big Fish tales and dogmatic pronouncements about extremely dubious things are liable to be taken seriously by people and that can be dangerous.​

​

Take, for instance, his latest declaration (eaten up with gullible fervor by the Spirit Daily crowd and similar apparition chasers like Medjugorje Today) that if you don’t buy Medjugorje you are a fool and a traitor to God and if you wait for the Church’s judgement on the matter you are a fool.​

​

“In the Old Testament God sent prophets to warn of the betrayals of the Jewish people. Now, here, to warn of the betrayal of the Christian people, also the priests, God sends us His Mother! It has been 30 years! Is it possible that people still do not hear? And as for those people who believe themselves to be intelligent by saying they wait until the Church approves? They are fools!” said Fr. Gabriele Amorth.​

​

With dangerous and scandalous pronouncements like this, Fr. Amorth passes from being a voluble fellow who tells yarns and pops off about inconsequential stuff like Harry Potter, to posing a danger to souls. I hope that nobody takes this rubbish seriously and feels himself morally bound to rush to judgment on this (I am persuaded, false) apparition and I hope whoever his superior is tells him to recant this reckless and dangerous nonsense, be henceforth silent about Medjugorje, and stop tying up heavy burdens on the shoulders of scrupulous and confused people. I also hope he stops calling good people (including bishops and priests) traitors for not being snookered by this fraud.​

​

There is absolutely no harm in waiting for the judgment of the Church. If it turns out Medjugorje doubters are wrong, then we’re wrong and will submit to the Church. If it turns out we’re right, we will not have sent terrified people to go follow a false revelation against their own conscience.​

Meanwhile, I hope people will stop anointing these folk heros and treating all questioning of them as though it is part of a conspiracy to destroy Real Catholic faith. It could just be that honest people have honest reasons for honest doubts and disagreements."​

 

I like Father Amorth . He is a straight talker straight shooter, I wish there were more like him.

I don't suppose the Vatican would have made him Chief Exorcist if he was nuts. He talks a lot of sense. I admire exorcists they are my heroes. So a Chief Exorcist is kind of a super hero.

I even like his name Amorth, Spooksville.

 

Here is a affirmative testimony...pretty impressive might I add.
http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/9984/incurable-man-was-healed-in-medjugorje/

 

I have nothing against Father Amorth, personally. I don't know the man. But I do know what he has written, and it is troubling. Take for instance, this interview: "Top Exorcist Laments Apathy to Medjugorje" http://www.medjugorje.org/wordpress/archives/50

Father Amorth has doubled down on Medjugorje. He has decided that the Virgin Mary is appearing there, contrary to the statements of the local Bishop.

Father Amorth, and everyone else who have decided that the Virgin Mary is appearing at Medjugorje, are going to face a dilemma in the very near future I fear: when the negative Vatican ruling comes down as I believe, they are going to have a lot of explaining to do and going to have an awful lot of egg to wipe off their faces. Most people will accept the Vatican's ruling, but there will be some who will double down even further - and this is where the spiritual danger comes in.

Had Father Amorth remained obedient to the local bishop, instead of saying that the Virgin Mary is appearing at Medjugorje, he would have instead said that the Virgin Mary might be appearing at Medjugorje or she may not be, but that it is best to follow the local Bishop when in doubt.

If Father Amorth was such an experienced exorcist, he would have also added that it is very possible that Satan might be appearing at Medjugorje as an "angel of light". Satan does not care if there are some good "fruits", all Satan cares about is ultimately sowing division and disobedience. And guess what: that is exactly the danger that is faced as this Vatican ruling approaches: division and disobedience. And guess what: it could have all been avoided had everyone remained obedient to the local Bishop of Mostar from the get-go.

 

I too am a "fan" of Father Amorth. tells it as it is and I believe him to be a holy priest. I think he is spot on with Medjugorje as well.

 

This is clearly one difference of opinion that's not going to be resolved in the immediate future. Both sides have set out their arguments at length on the internet for all to see. But for those who take a strongly negative view of Medjugorje, I would like to stress that 'obedience to the local bishop' is not the ultimate trump card in these kind of situations (as is plain from the fact that Cardinal Ruini's commission is now the one in charge...), because bishops are cleary fallible.

If you do some historical research into the history of apparitions/private revelation, a pattern tends to emerge in which most apparitions finally declared 'worthy of belief' are initially shut down or else faced intense opposition from certain clerics, especially when the message in question contains a critical component relating to the clergy. La Salette is the classic case of this; the famous study Celle qui pleure by Léon Bloy (about whom I am in the process of publishing an academic paper) makes it devastatingly clear just how the notion of 'obedience' can be used by unscrupulous and sometimes flagrantly corrupt prelates to intimidate a seer (just as it can and has in other circumstances been used to silence victims of pedophilia and other abuses). Another shocking example is the psychological duress applied by the investigator Don Luigi Cortesi to 7 year-old Adelaide Roncalli in 1944 in order to produce a retraction of her claim to have seen the Virgin in Ghiaie di Bonate (you can read about that elsewhere on this forum by putting 'Ghiaie' into the search engine on the top right-hand side) - events that drew crowds of 300,000(!!). This retraction - which Adelaide R. later insisted was illegitimately produced - was critical in the local bishop's negative judgment on Bonate, one which historians are now re-assessing in the light of new evidence.

The pattern that emerges from such cases - and I could mention others - seems pretty clear. Faced by a genuine apparition (something which infuriates him), the Enemy's prime tactic is to sift the local church authorities like wheat, precisely because he knows that if he can succeed in deceiving someone with judicatory responsibility, the apparition/seer will be closed down. Remember that our Adversary is a master tactician, and that any device or scheme that one of us could come up with is certainly something that he is more than capable of considering. His classic method is to manipulate any individual with authority who has left him even a half-open door because of unresolved personal issues of ambition etc. ... just as he did with Judas. All he has to do is to find a churchman with an over-inflated idea of his own office who is prepared to say something such as 'this must be false because the Virgin would never admonish a bishop' (why not?), and he's in business. Reading the case material concerning Medjugorje in the light of history and the role played by Bp Zanic, I can't help having a sense of déjà vu here.

I cannot over-emphasize the importance of in-depth research and the critical reading of primary sources for anyone who really is interested in ascertaining the truth as far as humanly possible about an apparition site/contested visionary. Miscarriages of justice are one of the Enemy's specialities... but the truth will out eventually, even if it sometimes takes a long while (think of Saint Faustina, or Ida Peerdeman in Amsterdam - the negative verdict of 1956 on Ida P. only being reversed in 2002).

 

Until there is a ruling by the Vatican, obedience to the local Bishop is required.

This is not so much an issue of infallibility as it is one of obedience to the judgement of the local Bishop.

Here is a helpful resource: NORMS REGARDING THE MANNER OF PROCEEDING IN THE DISCERNMENT OF PRESUMED APPARITIONS OR REVELATIONS http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19780225_norme-apparizioni_en.html

 

"The Truth About Medjugorje", Father Dr. Ljudevit Rupcic clearly explains this situation..

David, if we had all supported the Bishop's attitude to Medjugorje at the 'get-go', we would all believe in it. He supported the visionaries for several months whillst the parish priest, Fr. Zovko was still expressing great reservations, the bishop actually spent quite a lot of time and effort to persuade him to reconsider. According to Fr. Zovko, the change in the Bishop's attitude came about after the Communist secret police had visited the Bishop and threatened him with imprisonment. The Bishop told Fr. Zovko about the threats made to him and said that he was not prepared to go to prison and immediately withdrew his support. Fr. Zovko said that he was astonished that a Bishop might change his public stance for such a reason.
Fr. Zovko was subsequently threatened with a charge of 'Sedition' (which carried a maximum penalty of death) but still refused to stop saying evening Masses for the (then local) pilgrims as the authorities were demanding. He was eventually charged with a lesser offence and was imprisoned for 3.5 years and suffered a severe loss of hearing because of the work he was given during the time he served. The alleged visionaries were threatened too with being removed from their homes and being detained in a mental hospital but would not withdraw their claims. They later came under severe ecclesiastical pressure to retract but again declined to do so.
The visionaries foretold the collapse of communism regimes of Russia and eastern Europe well before the Berlin wall fell and when such a hope appeared to be very unrealistic. I have an Albanian friend who escaped with his family as a child in the fifties. No contact was allowed with the family remaining in Albania and his parents who had longed to be able to see their brothers and sisters before they died, it never happened. I assured him, in the eighties, that he would be able to visit the country very soon, he laughed at the idea. However within 2 years of that conversation, he was home again.
My wife, who is not a Catholic has shared some of the spiritual experiences that I have experienced related to Medjugorje and is totally convinced that Our Lady had appeared there. http://motheofgod.com/threads/one-of-my-medjugorje-stories.3255/
There will be no 'egg on our faces' as you predict. If these apparitions are true, the Church and the world will know if and when the 'secrets' begin to unfold at the times they are to be predicted. Then they will be proved or disproved. And if you say, 'Satan could do that', give us just one accurate prophecy from that source.

 

I was there many times, hundreds of times. I live very close to, and sometimes I go there for coffee. A few years ago I was thinking about Medjugorje, and I wondered why it has not been approved. Then I opened their website and read the hundreds of messages. I was very disappointed, all messages were empty, and did not have a deeper meaning. In their mother tongue a man is hard to deceive, especially since these visionaries are mostly illiterate, are not able to write a sentence without spelling errors. Thank God for that. The messages of Our Lady threatened the villagers that do not go to Mass, you disbelieve in apparitions. I was very disappointed and I wondered how anyone believes that it is a message from Our Lady. God gave man the freedom to think and act according to his will. The judge is God and not Madonna. Visionaries are not under the influence of Satan, they are just plain liars. The region is so corrupt to the core, that the people are sick from watch it. They are promoters around the world who bring pilgrims, and everything is done through a number of agencies that are owned by local families. I am very sorry that pilgrims come, they come clean heart, and these liars they just exploit them. Visionaries behave like a rock star, have bodyguards, a lot of property, large bank accounts. Visionaries have almost no contact with the local population, unless it comes to family and other members of the financial sect, it is all a show for the pilgrims, because 90% of the local population does not believe in the apparitions. I'm sorry that you trust them, but it's your freedom.

 

Hi Rino from Mostar, I do love the old bridge!

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - are there alleged messages in which Our Lady threatens villagers who do not go to Mass, that this means they do no believe in the apparitions? In other words if they claim to believe but do not go to Mass as the messages urge, then they don't really believe?

Sorry if I've got this wrong, just not sure what you're saying here although your English is very good

 

Was it not Jesus who said, A prophet is despised in his homeland? I think Satan works very hard to have the locals reject what is happening in their land. I know enough people, including my own daughter, who have been there and seen and shared their own stories of wander and awe. Until I have sound reason to disbelieve, I remain a believer.