Pope: Love of Christ in celibacy, source of communion and mission for families by Bernardo Cervellera Benedict XVI, on a pastoral visit to Milan, meets priests, deacons and consecrated in the Cathedral, within the context of the VII World Meeting of Families. Among the saints "who have devoted their energies to the service of the Gospel" he mentions two PIME missionaries. Personal love of Jesus Christ, also cultivated with liturgical prayer, is the source of the "zeal" and the unity of life of the priest. Milan (AsiaNews) - "The witness of consecrated persons" show "the world the beauty of the gift to Christ and the Church" and renews "Christian families according to the plan of God, because they are places of grace and holiness, fertile ground for vocations to the priesthood and consecrated life", said Benedict XVI in his meditation for the celebration of Daytime prayer in Milan Cathedral with priests, deacons and religious of the archdiocese of Milan, celebrated today at 10. After the first three days of the World Meeting of Families, which focused on rediscovering the "normal" family, consisting of husband, wife and children, the Pope dedicated his address to the consecrated vocation, emphasizing words like "celibacy", "celibate", "virginity "," virgin "," total gifting" repeated dozens of times in his short speech. Clearly not open to debate under Benedicts rule.
I find this disturbing,...thoughts anyone? http://www.newsmax.com/NewsmaxTv/do..._mail_job=1537805_09172013&promo_code=14E40-1
'Many are called but few are chosen'. This reminds me of the demands of priesthood - total and absolute donation of self to God. Celibacy is the norm for the priesthood.
The devil is very active. Bill Donohue is not praying enough. Otherwise he would never say such things.
On Priestly Celibacy. Our Lady to St. Bridget of Sweden (Appointed Patron of Europe by Pope John Paul II) as recounted in ‘The Prophecies and Revelations of St. Bridget’ (The authorship of this work is not disputed) Very strong words! “But now I shall tell you God's will in this matter…… Know this too: that if some pope concedes to priests a license to contract carnal marriage, God will condemn him to a sentence as great, in a spiritual way, as that which the law justly inflicts in a corporeal way on a man who has transgressed so gravely that he must have his eyes gouged out, his tongue and lips, nose and ears cut off, his hands and feet amputated, all his body's blood spilled out to grow completely cold, and finally, his whole bloodless corpse cast out to be devoured by dogs and other wild beasts. Similar things would truly happen in a spiritual way to that pope who were to go against the aforementioned preordinance and will of God and concede to priests such a license to contract marriage. For that same pope would be totally deprived by God of his spiritual sight and hearing, and of his spiritual words and deeds. All his spiritual wisdom would grow completely cold; and finally, after his death, his soul would be cast out to be tortured eternally in hell so that there it might become the food of demons everlastingly and without end. Yes, even if Saint Gregory the Pope had made this statute, in the aforesaid sentence he would never have obtained mercy from God if he had not humbly revoked his statute before his death.” She says a great deal more about the Church and Churchmen that could have been written yesterday!
A great and holy women of course though we must be careful not to canonise all that she wrote as well. Even the experiences of great saints are not free of those limitations which always accompany the human reception of God's voice. If Pope Francis deemed it acceptable for married men to be admitted as Priests of the Church I would accept that not only exteriorly but interiorly also as the will of God for today...of course not denying that St Bridget's understanding of God's will may have been better suited for her time.
Are you saying you dont believe a Pope can go against the will of God BH? Or just on this issue, which you clearly support?
Are you saying you dont believe a Pope can go against the will of God BH? I think the answer to that, wrt celibacy for secular priests, is beyond my pay level Mac. I am not always sure what God's will is for me so how could I hope to know what it is for Pope Francis on this matter? If Pope Francis teaches and decides within received Public Revelation/Tradition then God's will is for me to accept and obey regardless of my own limited and fallible convictions and, with all due respects, the time-bound or more dubiously understood utterances of private revelation. Or just on this issue, which you clearly support? Why would you think I clearly support some married men becoming secular priests today. Is it because I opine that noone has to take as gospel every utterance of a great Mystic, especially when it borders on contradicting accepted Church Tradition that holds such is but an arbitrary discipline of the Church (whereas, for comparision, Women Priests is not)? I am past taking black and white sides on such questions of practical judgement by Church authorities such as these. I do not know God's will on this matter for today, nor do you, nor does St Brigid (well she might but she is no longer able to tell us) and really we are not the ones who need to so discern anyway. What I do know is that it is a legitimate option that does not contradict Church Tradition. Therefore the Pope may validly decide either way and I will support him. Whatever he binds on earth is bound in heaven afterall. Are you saying the Pope will burn in purgatory for a long, long time if he disagrees with St Brigid... Will you support Pope Francis if it doesn't go your way ... which opinion, unlike myself, does seem to be clear? I believe solidarity of the faithful with the Pope is more important than arguing over whether or not he is following God's Will (how would we know?) on optional matters. That to me is very clearly "God's Will" on this question.
BH said...Why would you think I clearly support some married men becoming secular priests today. Because the other day you said .... Padraig I have a great deal of sympathy for where you are coming from. I have known a great number of priests very closely for many years because I lodged at a Parish monastery for 5 years as a young layman (when I did a theology degree) and rubbed shoulders with many more from different orders at the university theology faculty itself. I have watched them grow and mature and with a handful I have shared their inner torments and diffficulties as well. I have been a shoulder to cry on as it were for some of them when they sought laicisation and with deep sadness left the minstry. Not all of them married. Many went on to do great things for the Church community as laymen. 35 years later I still keep in touch with a good many from that time. It is very clear to me that a good number of young men who become priests do not naturally have the gift of celibacy as you have it. It is also clear to me that a good number were gay in orientation and were too young to fully realise this. (My observations turned out to be confirmed in a good number of cases many years later). A good number of these young men managed to "learn" celibacy by sticking to the straight and narrow (prayer, community life, not looking for trouble, a good family in the parish to "waste time" with etc) and sometimes with the aid of understandable props (excessive love of alcohol, power, liturgical pomp and ceremony etc). However there are also some for whom the celibate lifestyle simply goes against their nature and the emotional desert becomes a cross so great they can no longer function adequately. A few of them were fairly arrogant ratbags to start with but not the majority. The ones who burnt out and left were often the most empathetic and caring in their parish work and very hard workers. I agree with what you say about the symbolic witness of celibacy. And it is also true that celibates have more time to give to the parish. Yet I do not believe that these are the primary requirements for priestly ministry. Somewhere the Bible says it is our hearts that must be circumcised not our bodies. And the same holds re virginity/celibacy. I believe there are good men out there who could do great works for the Church and for God as married priests that they could not maintain if they entered the priesthood single. Diamonds are precious because they are rare. The gift of celibacy is rarer than the number of priests in the Church would suggest. One cannot guarantee diamonds by a seminary course or the graces of ordination alone. Grace has to build on nature as Aquinas always said. Maybe it is time we made a little more allowance for this fact. There will always be young men like yourself who are gifted more by nature than by grace to live celibacy...many will always be attracted to the priesthood still. Pretty clear where you stand BH
BH answered ..Are you saying you dont believe a Pope can go against the will of God BH? I think the answer to that, wrt celibacy for secular priests, is beyond my pay level Mac. I am not always sure what God's will is for me so how could I hope to know what it is for Pope Francis on this matter? Im just asking in general, yes or no will suffice. You ask....Are you saying the Pope will burn in purgatory for a long, long time if he disagrees with St Brigid?... Ummm , well , who am I to judge? BH asks...Will you support Pope Francis if it doesn't go your way ? No I will not support that position, but I will try to support him all the more with prayer and sacrifice . Have you supported in your heart all previous pontiffs teachings on this? I suspect not from your comments. BH said...I believe solidarity of the faithful with the Pope is more important than arguing over whether or not he is following God's Will (how would we know?) on optional matters. That to me is very clearly "God's Will" on this question. The question is only being asked because the world and SO many of the faithful have NOT had solidarity with the Popes, which you seem to hold so dear.
Mac I really do not know what your issue is here. Yes, I have attempted to show some sound reasons why Church Tradition, which has always allowed suitable married men to become Priests in the past, may wisely, in the person of Pope Francis, do so again - balancing some rather extreme views on this thread which suggests all good Catholics should oppose such an option. As I have stated above I have no strong will of my own either way because it isn't a decision between good and evil but rather a practical,disciplinary judgement between good or better. Which one is good and which one is better in these times I do not pretend to know. I trust enough in the Holy Spirit to accept whatever the Magisterium may decide. Any such decision will always be for the best if we support the Pope regardless of whether it is to our own personal liking/wisdom or not. If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that you somehow know God's will better than the Pope and Tradition on this matter. If so then, yes, I find that more disturbing than the topic in question. I do not wish to inflame your strong feelings on this matter further so will leave it at that for the moment.
Hi BH, you say that the Saint's 'understanding may have been better suited to her time'. Well if you read 'The Revelations', you will see that in regard to the failure of priests to live celibate lives and the scandals arising from that situation, the problems of that time are astonishingly similar (identical?) to those in our own. I acknowledge that, if a Pope changes the rules on celibacy, then we shall all be bound by it through the authority he has been granted but that doesn't make it the will of God necessarily just as I do not believe, for example, that the ending of the prayer to St. Michael after Mass was the will of God nor several other changes I have seen in my lifetime. This is 'private revelation' and therefore no one is bound to believe it. However we are dealing with a Saint who is a Patroness of Europe and who claimed to have spoken frequently with God and Our Lady on many matters. If the Church did not believe her claims I wonder why she was canonised and made patroness (so recently) especially as 'The Revelations' form a major part of her life's work. I believe that it would be as unwise to dismiss the Saint's revelations as it would be to dismiss the claims of the Fatima visionaries. St. Bridget notes that under the old covenant, priests were not permitted intimate relations with their wives for a period before making animal sacrifices in the Temple. How much more purity is required of a priest who offers the Body and Blood of Christ? This is a difficulty unknown to married Protestant clergymen who do not believe that they are offering a sacrifice but merely observing a memorial.
Luke 1:37 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. If we take a utilitarian, 'It just isn't working we must do away with it or radically change it', argument of celibacy as a valid argument we would be getting rid of much else in the Church. For instance in Europe with spiraling divorce rates in Catholic countries it could well be argued that co-habitation outside marriage from an equally utilitarian perspective might be an option. 'In Portugal, divorces rose 89 percent from 1995 to 2004, and 62 percent in Italy and 59 percent in Spain for that same period. Germany and Britain have the highest rates of divorce.' An another workmanlike approach might be taken with the Vatican Curia and the Episcopate itself after the child abuse scandals and repeated infighting and these too might be swept away. In fact the Church itself , it might be argued, from a similiar perspective, be deemed to past its sell by date and binned. 'The gap has widened between the numbers of Catholics in Southern Europe who declare their faith and those who practice it. A recent survey of Italians, for example, showed nearly 88 percent identify themselves as Catholic but only about 33 percent said they attend weekly mass. ' cf http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/divorce_on_the_rise_in_catholic_europe/ It was one of the very noticable trends amongst the Protestant 'Reformers ' to attack the mystical. So the Eucharist, Confession, Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary and Celibacy were amongst the first to be binned. For as St Paul teaches: 1 Corinthians 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: ..and the teachings of people like Martin Luther on celibacy and the Eucharist came not from a spiritual but a human perspective. Concerning my own experience of celibacy I have a couple of funny stories to tell. My late Spiritual Director , a Passionist Priest told me that his community was visited by a Jewish Doctor, a Freudian Psychoanalyst who wished to do research on clerical celibacy. In a meeting with the Passionist Community he asked if he could speak to their mistresses. When they laughed and told them they had none, he asked to speak ( in confidence) to the children with whom they were having sex and also to each of the partners with whom they were having homosexual sex. When told they did not do this he simply would not believe as, as a Freudian he believed on principle that Celibacy was impossible. He was asked to leave. I recall meeting a very good grandmother a Freudian Psycholanalyist of some repute who opined that since I was celibate I must have little or no sex drive since I was celibate. The lady then went on , with no sense of inconsistency to ask me advise about the spiritual life of her children, her grandchildren and herself. At the around the same time I met a priest a very well educated Jungian therapist who had no difficulties at all in believing I was celibate for spiritual reasons and had a deep fascination in my visions and dreams which of course the Freudian lady had no interest as they had no sexual content. It seems to me that any real understanding of celibacy must be mystical in nature otherwise the whole point and meaning is lost. Celibacy, I suggest, is just what the Church says on the tin. About relationship with God.
Excellent anecdotes Padraig . "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" is a favourite Freudian quote of mine also. I couldn't quite see the inconstancy wrt the woman. Spiritual sensitivity and depth is understandably associated with those less involved in the noise and inevitable vapouries of the world. While some, esp men, see irrelevence and failure in men without sexual experience/prowess - many women, tired of such men and their narrow worldly attitudes, seem often drawn to celibates who are more likely to see them as real persons.
Bh said.'.I do not wish to inflame your strong feelings on this matter further so will leave it at that for the moment.' Actually I enjoy your posts BH,nothing like a healthy discussion . ' BH said...' become Priests in the past, may wisely, in the person of Pope Francis' You must see how using the word wisely shows your bias against solidarity to previous popes.And if Pope Francis chooses not to continue,is he not wise? And this...'If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that you somehow know God's will better than the Pope and Tradition on this matter. If so then, yes, I find that more disturbing than the topic in question'. At this point and time Pope Francis has not changed the rules ,so this is all only hyperthetical[for my stand point].So there is no need to be disturbed for me yet. What I find disturbing is that our last Popes have been quite clear on the issue ,yet many ,yourself included entertain these ideas that it is an open discussion when it has not been, and then, when a Pope may head in your direction you want to pull out..' I trust enough in the Holy Spirit to accept whatever the Magisterium may decide.'and chastise anyone who wont agree. So it seems to me , that you were allowed to hold views different to reigning Pontiffs, but you see a big problem if I do in the future?
1 Corinthians 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. The inconsistancy of the psycholanalyst lies in this , I believe, that whilst on the one hand she wrote off my celibacy as my having no sexual drive on the other hand she sought spiritual advise from me. Now if it where true the life I lead arose simply from lack of sexuality then why seek advice? The scenario you put forward that men are unable to see women as real persons seems to me very , very harsh indeed. I see no reason why a man could not be sensitive, caring and able to listen to a woman , treating her as a person. To suggest otherwise seems to be,forgive me , sexist. And to suggest that any man who does treat a woman as a real person is lacking in sexual drive seems to me, again forgive me, to show a strong gender bias against men. I believe the root of this bias is that your interpretation is Freudian and limited. Or let me put it another way, you are not seeing spiritual things spiritually. Instead of thinking about such matters, leave Mr Freud alone and pray about them, especially the rosary at the feet of Mary and you will see them differently. You are putting the cart before the horse, sex before love. But love comes first, love second and love last. Sex is only one expression of love amongst many. Pray, pray the rosary. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2907.htm “Prayer is the best weapon we have; it is the key to God's heart. You must speak to Jesus not only with your lips, but with your heart. In fact on certain occasions you should only speak to Him with your heart.” ― Padre Pio,
Padraig somehow you've managed to get the wrong end of the stick. I was simply commenting on your picture of Freud and the phrase underneath, full stop. I am in fact a Jungian, if anything, and have no time for Freud. My analysis of the woman in your anecdote was based on my own experience as a counsellor and as a celibate for my first 40 yrs. I personally see no contradiction in the incident as I have had similar when I was celibate...however you were there and I was not. It is my experience that troubled women find much comfort in the company and advice of celibate men, especially monks and gay men. It seems to be so for a number of reasons including a feeling of safety (no sexual agendas at play), higher values, authenticity, insight and education. WRT non-celibate men it is of course a Both/And scenario rather than the Either/Or one you have mistakenly assumed above . To think that non-celibate men cannot be equally sensitive etc is of course silly. It is my experience that such women seek out celibates often because their troubles stem from not having found such sensitivity, peace, trust and comfort in their own circles of (non-celibate) men-folk. Most men (even the married) have little idea of the unspoken power/sexual exploitations that women face daily outside the front door and in the workplace ranging from inuendos to outright violence. Celibates are often a beacon of sanctuary in such darkness. So are caring and sensitive non-celibates, but they are harder to find and obviously don't have a lot of spare time .
In a ,' Human' sense yes. In a Catholic, spiritual , prayerful and in the Tradition of the Church,no.
Steve I see our capitalist, democratised (yet disenfranchised), mass-media-ised, global villagised, nucear-familised, over technologised, over energy-ised and over polluted times as very different from Europe in the 1300s. That’s an interesting point. Myself, I really no longer understand what people mean by "the Will of God" these days. People sometimes use it to basically mean "I am right and you are wrong." Sometimes it is used by leaders to gain solidarity behind some grand politcal act of war or relatiation ("God is on our side.") I only know God's will in general through right reason (hopefully) applied to "natural law" and from the Teachings of the Church. But wrt specifics and particulars...where then is God's Will? Is it not the usual suspects... pray, reflect, listen to our consciences, apply the principles...and learn by doing. And when we inevitably make mistakes or are weak then we ask for forgiveness - as we must forgive others. In Christ's own example I believe we even find a God who bends his own Will to accommodate our weaknesses that he might better serve His Church. "Whatever you bind on earth will be considered bound in heaven." It seems God is even prepared to change His Will for our sakes and allow things He, if left to Himself, would prefer not to do. And that solidarity is what each of us is called to do also. And that also is God's Will. It doesn't matter if our legitimate authorities make what we regard as foolish decisions...it is still God's will that we obey them so long as direct cooperation in evil is not involved. That is exactly the example that Our Lady gave at Garabandal and that great humility never ceases to amaze me. My understanding is that persons are canonised for their heroic virtues and love of God and people, not because of their huge talents or spiritual gifts or learning - though these gifts would obviously raise their stature if they are holy saints. Clearly noone gets to be a saint if their writings/experiences contradict Church Teaching/Tradition. That doesn't mean the Church endorses the truth of every particular. Unlike Public Revelation which we are called to assent to with a supernatural faith in all its entirity, the private revelation of Mystics is only to be assented to with a human, natural faith which must therefore be prudential. I find the attached document on these matters helpful. Pertinent quotes from it on this topic would seem to be the following: "Throughout the ages, there have been "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history." "A private revelation may recall wayward individuals to the faith, stir the devotion of the already pious, encourage prayer and penance on behalf of others, but it cannot substitute for the Catholic faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion with the Pope and bishops." "...If the Congregation determines that he or she lived a life of heroic virtue this decision necessarily includes the judgment that the writings, including any mystical ones, are not contrary to faith and morals. " "...canonization of the person only heightens the credibility of the person's writings and the pious regard Catholics should have for them, according to the standard given by Benedict XIV: ‘Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence.' [Benedict XIV]" "The Pope is saying that ... that acceptance does not rest on the guarantee of Faith, or the charism of infallibility, but on the credibility of the evidence as it appeals to reason. The assent involved is not supernatural but the natural assent that the intellect gives to facts which it judges to be true.”
