It's passages such as this that makes my eyes just glaze over the Old Testament. Excellent find Hope. Let's kill the infidels!!!
GMFU, thanks for posting here, please stay. I have some prayer cycles just freed up after finishing my 33 day consecration to Our Lady and am going to put you in my daily prayers. God Bless you.
Thanks so much for the prayers. Perhaps you could shed some light in this. You know how a lot of the saints say everyone in heaven looks around 30? I have always wondered, when children die, do they instantly become adults, or are they allowed to grow up in heaven? Heidi
This latter part makes sense, I think (2264). He said those who knowingly choose to break the Commandment...so if a burglar comes into my house and I pounce on him with a Louisville, if I meant to just knock him out and he dies instead, in my mind that was not knowingly choosing to break the Commandment. Me personally, I'd still be desperately sorry and apologizing to God left and right. The other one on capital punishment - I have to disagree in accordance with what I was told by Him. That is a definitive choice that is made to end someone's life.
The Fifth Commandment, "You shall not kill" Murder (intentional homicide)— Direct and intentional killing is gravely sinful (CCC 2268). It is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance, much like the murder of Abel at the hands of Cain. Indirect homicide can also be of grave nature (such as refusing to help a person in danger). However, the Church teaches that self-defense is permissible for the preservation of a one’s life. If the attacker is mortally wounded or killed, then the death of the attacker is not a sin. Those who use unnecessary aggression in self-defense can sin mortally, if the attacker is killed or gravely injured.
I don't know. I've never heard that everyone looks like they're 30. I'd rather be 28, but if I'm in Heaven, I won't be picky. If I were a child in Heaven, I would stay that way. That's just me though. The way it feels when they are having fun...it feels very different than when God is talking about His Angels or something else that He loves. When He is talking about the children (the Little Flowers) there is always just tons of joy and warmth and extreme love, like holy cow! It's like they're having a happy party just laughing so much their sides hurt.
GMFU, thanks for responding on this important point. I think it is interesting that your understanding of God's position on capital punishment is contrary to what the His Church as always taught in this regard. CCC #2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor. I also quote from Father John Hardon's Catholic Catechism with Imprimatur: "Capital punishment is part of the acknowledged Christian tradition, illustrated by St. Paul's statement that, "The State is there to serve God for your benefit. If you break the law, however, you may well have fear; the bearing of the sword has its significance. The authorities are there serve God; they carry our God's revenge by punishing wrongdoers" (Romans 13:4)". Now I am no way advocating for the death penalty. I am merely stating what the Catholic Church and scriptures have always taught on this subject. So the question is, can Christ and his church be at odds on this moral teaching?
Without hesitation the most holy person I have ever been in the presence of. I went to his annual retreat in Chicago in the 80's and 90's. What a holy theologian. A living saint, who was a 'dry martyr' for the faith his whole life. A wonderful priest to confess to and to spend time in conversation with. Cardinal Burke and Father Hardon were great friends. Cardinal Burke was responsible for developing one of the most beautiful shrines http://www.guadalupeshrine.org/ in the US in the hills at Lacrosse, Wisconsin. In the main entrance of the building there is a huge dedication to Servant of God, Father Hardon SJ, and his canonization. He was Mother Teresa's and her Sisters of Charity's spiritual director http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Fr_Hardon/Fr_Hardon_008.htm. He was asked by the Vatican in the early 1980's to write a Catholic Catechism, which he did. Rome used this until their version, which he was on its commission, completed the 1994 Catholic Catechism, which we are all familiar with. One short story he told at a retreat: He was a very slow and deliberate speaker. He wore these thick black glasses during his 45 minute talks. Behind his podium he sat and told us that he once raced against the fastest man in the world, Jesse Owens. He leaned over the podium looking over his eye glasses and said, "and I don't have to tell you who won"!! Ah, he had great humor to go with his deep deep theology and holiness. I was able to collect dozens of his tapes and you can listen 1000's of his tapes on every subject that you have ever considered by visiting this site: http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/archives.htm
I have so many times visited that website and was so inspired by his writings, especially on the Holy Eucharist,..I think you are so fortunate to have had the honor of being in his presense and being taught by this great servant of God,..what a blessing to the Church
I met Fr. Hardon when he was in the Pacific NW. I didn't really know who he was at all. My friend had him as her spiritual adviser and used to say what a holy priest he was. I went with her one time and he allowed me some one on one time with him. I basically started telling him some marital problem I was having at the time so I could get some advice. He just sat there and looked at me. It was awkward. I was very naive. He looked like he was thinking and then said, "You will find union with God and you will have many spiritual children...." I had NO IDEA what that meant. I had had a miscarriage and I thought he might be saying I was going to lose many of my babies, and I had no idea what union with God was and so I asked, "Is that good?" He laughed out loud. It was something I'll never forget and now that I know who he is, wow--what a moment THAT WAS!! I'm thinking he was a mystic now. No doubt.
There have been just wars in the past ,and all killing is not sinful.. .Just War (2307-17) All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.Despite this admonition of the Church, it sometimes becomes necessary to use force to obtain the end of justice. This is the right, and the duty, of those who have responsibilities for others, such as civil leaders and police forces. While individuals may renounce all violence those who must preserve justice may not do so, though it should be the last resort, "once all peace efforts have failed." [Cf. Vatican II, Gaudium et spes 79, 4] As with all moral acts the use of force to obtain justice must comply with three conditions to be morally good. First, the act must be good in itself. The use of force to obtain justice is morally licit in itself. Second, it must be done with a good intention, which as noted earlier must be to correct vice, to restore justice or to restrain evil, and not to inflict evil for its own sake. Thirdly, it must be appropriate in the circumstances. An act which may otherwise be good and well motivated can be sinful by reason of imprudent judgment and execution. In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met: "1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;3. there must be serious prospects of success;4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].The responsibility for determining whether these conditions are met belongs to "the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." The Church's role consists in enunciating clearly the principles, in forming the consciences of men and in insisting on the moral exercise of just war. The Church greatly respects those who have dedicated their lives to the defense of their nation. "If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace. [Cf. Gaudium et spes 79, 5]" However, she cautions combatants that not everything is licit in war. Actions which are forbidden, and which constitute morally unlawful orders that may not be followed, include: - attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;- genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities;- indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants.Given the modern means of warfare, especially nuclear, biological and chemical, these crimes against humanity must be especially guarded against. In the end it is not enough to wage war to achieve justice without treating the underlying causes. "Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war" [CCC 2317]. The Church has no illusions that true justice and peace can be attained before the Coming of the Lord. It is the duty of men of good will to work towards it, nonetheless. In the words of the spiritual dictum, we should work as if everything depended upon our efforts, and pray as if everything depended upon God. Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL LOL Im even quoting VII NOW,maybe there is hope for me after all"once all peace efforts have failed." [Cf. Vatican II, Gaudium et spes 79, 4] Apologetics - Doctrine - Canon Law - Eastern Churches - General - History - Liturgy - Moral NFP - Philosophy - Pro-Life - Scripture - Spiritual
St. Thomas Aquinas gave the most substantial argument for tyrannicide. He based his position on his arguments for just war and capital punishment. St. Thomas concluded, "He who kills a tyrant (i.e. an usurper) to free his country is praised and rewarded" (In 2 Sentences, 44.2.2 So killing can even be virtuous.At least according to St Thomas,who is a DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH.
Without doubt, Father John Hardon is within the top 10 greatest theologians the Church has ever had. Just listen for a moment to some of his over 2000 audio tapes at www.therealpresence.org and you will see. For instance, on the subject of homosexuality alone he has 16, 45 minute talks. He speaks very slow and every word is chosen distinctly. If I had to pray for a miracle for someone in need, I would pray to Servant of God Father John Hardon SJ, without hesitation. He was so loved by the Blessed Mother whom he spoke often on and so hated by the world, including many bishops and priests and I know this hurt him dearly, but most in the Jesuit order hated him too.
I have never understood the need for capital punishment and never thought it to be just. I am not one that wants to go against church teaching on this but just have never understood how the church got to that stance. Life to me is so precious. All life good or bad. When we kill the worst of us because of justice have we not cheated that person out of the possibility of repenting? Didn't the man on the cross next to Jesus have the chance all the way up to the moment of his death to repent of his sin which he did and Jesus forgave? What about the victims family and friends? When we kill for justice where is their chance to forgive their neighbor as God commands? I can't help but think of the image of Pope John Paul forgiving his attempted assassin. How can we forgive if we have killed for justice? Peter wanted to kill the soldiers coming for Jesus and what did Jesus say? Turn the other cheek. Those who kill with the sword die by the sword. I truly hope I never have to or kill anyone but if I ever did I am quite sure I would feel great remorse for doing so. Because of that repentive remorse felt I hope God would forgive me for doing His job. When we kill someone in self defense how do we know that that was not our moment in time to leave this place and go home with God? These are just the thoughts in my head and for me only God knows the truth but this topic on never killing because that is God's job seems to make sense and ring true to me.
Hi Linda. I have a question for you well God really. I have read through all messages through May now and the most recent ones in September. God talks a lot of the warning/correction and how terrible it is and you yourself have graceously asked to experience it even for a second to which God seemed to not be too keen on you feeling it even for a second. I guess my question boils down to can God give us some hope or encouragement for this purification that I do agree to be very much needed for the whole world? What I mean is can we take our medicine and endure this terrible, horrifying event if we can and then be left with a second where God then fills us with his love and gives us the strength we then need to come out of it and go forward (maybe he already will do this)? When I need to discipline my children I feel terrible about doing it or terrible creating fear of me from them but you know what, I always then comfort them with my ever loving arms and kisses and build them back up to move on and forward. So can you please ask God the following question or at least join me in my prayer if He does not wish to reveal His plan: God....I accept your coming warning for us all. I truly understand the need for it and I submit to your will being done for all of us. I thank you for this great gift of mercy for all of us sinners. This last chance for humanity so to speak that you of course did not have to do for us. I ask that you keep us all diligent in preparing our souls and hearts for this time so that we may endure to come through it to then do your work and follow your will. I humbly beg you as a sinner on my knees before you to give us some hope and squeeze us with your most loving arms and shower us with your fatherly kisses during your warning. Do this if it be your will so that we do not have fear in our hearts leading up to this event but the joy in at least knowing that once we have endured the horrors of our sin by your help, love and grace only!! we can experience that love and forgiveness that only Our Father in Heaven could give. Thank you dear Lord and regardless of what is to come from this prayer whatever is your will I will humbly accept always. I love you so very much and am forever yours!
Andy; The Church teaches that capital punishment is only to be used if it's the only possible way to protect society from the criminal. From the Catechism: 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. (2306) If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”68
