I know because historically, the vast majority of saints don't kill. It is obvious. I don't have to be in their mind to see the obvious. Please tell me the stories of the many saints who killed to protect their loved ones. It's clear you have had some painful times and witnessed some horrible things. I also may not know real war, but I also have a great fear of going before God with blood on my hands. I will also repeat, the church has never advanced by the sword. Not once. Violence merely creates the conditions for more violence. I have never seen peace come by the edge of a sword.
The word, 'Violence', from the dictionary means the, 'Unnecssary use of force'. Correct. Sometimes however it is neccessary. The use of force in our poor, fallen world is obviously apparent. For instance, soldiers and policemen , who apprehend the wrongdoers. you, on the other hand suppose a world of saints. Much holier then the soldiers and police who would not use such violence. A world of people , who, unlike your Catholic brother soldiers and police would not use force but benifit from their use of force in the peace it maintains.
If I may butt in.....The old saying about never judging any situation unless you've walked a few miles in someone's shoes comes to mind here. There are MANY saints we are not aware of who fought, killed, and gave their very lives on battlefields over millenia. Fought to protect their homes, their families, their way of life. They suffered and died fighting for what was true, good and beautiful in this world. They had chaplains in the military to help the soldiers; the soldiers were given bibles & rosaries to take with them as they left to fight. And no doubt many of them have received the "crown of victory" for their efforts. So be very careful when speaking about that which of you have no experience. Most of us have never been in the situation. And very many of us have forgotten what was sacrificed that we may live to fight another day, if/when called upon.
Romans 12 14 Bless them that persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that rejoice; weep with them that weep. 16 Being of one mind one towards another. Not minding high things, but consenting to the humble. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 To no man rendering evil for evil. Providing good things, not only in the sight of God, but also in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. 19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. 21 Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good.
You are in a passicifist dream world. It's totally in your mind. This is not Catholic. Sometimes you have to fight. This is the real world.
The same was said of St. Francis. As well, the Bible in it's current form didn't happen by accident. This world is temporary.
Well. I can not totally disagree with you. When I was very,very, very young so many , many years ago I might indeed have gone along with you. It kinda reminds me of what Winston Churchill once said, 'The person who is not a Socialist before he is 30 has no heart. The person after has no head' Your totally pacifist view of things is great. I can only say that as someone who is nearly 70 , well, no. Maybe that means I have no heart. Maybe it means I am very violent.But no. I have a very,very, different take on things. As I get older I am far, far less inclined to be nice,
The Bible is the least pacifist book there is. It is all about conquering through the heart. It is easy to be violent, it is far harder to react with love when being exposed to violence.
There are many, many saints. I watch them in Church every day at mass. But I guess the saint my heart most longs for is the saint you might surprise me. Who might tell and show me in her life something new. Just shock me. As Jesus did.
The Bible is the most violent book I ever read in my entire life...and the good people, like King David ,were the most visciously violent of all.. as to Yahweh, God, He topped them all.
Please point me to the early Christians and saints who killed for the protection of their families. Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Well I'm away to bed. But this was exactly the same argument that Martin Luther made; that you make. That the early Christians somehow did it better, forget about,St Joan.
Very true. However when God kills it is because the sin of men has grown too far. God has always intended throughout the bible for all men to come to Him. However, since the fall, men have a tendency to worship false gods. God's Justice is perfect, as is His judgement, as are all His actions. If He raises up an army as a chastisement it is for good. As well, normally God gave fair warning through his prophets. Just like how we are here in the unfoldment of Fatima. Rest well
You've lost me. This does not contradict anything I have said, but totally contradicts every pacifist, pink cloud, thing you have said. Namely, good people, saints, sit on their hands
No it doesn't, it only seems that way. It pains God to kill, but He has to do it sometimes when it is a last resort. It is all about what is in the heart.
So He orders the Israelites to total genocide of entire Nations, Man , women, babies, HE does not not just do this once but over and over again... not only entire genocide....of everyone men women and child but their animals too...plus He names all the animals as well..why do you think He wants all the babies and animals killed? The young animals too.. not just the baby humans?
Then suddenly in your very own conception of the New Testament you think He is ordering us not to ever kill anyone at all? How did the switch come about? Doesn't that seem to you..well.. a little illogical? Jesus Himself on the way to His death Warned the Holy Women about the genocide of the fall of Jerusalem and the genocide of the Jews there. So, apparently genocide was still in fashion/
If you are talking about the Amalekites, they are the descendants of Esau. So when they were fleeing Egypt, the Amalekites attacked the Israelites. Then it says in Exodus 17:16 He said, “Because hands were lifted up against the throne of the Lord, the Lord will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.”
