Signs

I guess you slept through October, then? Missed the pictures of kidnapped women screaming as they were dragged off from a peace festival; didn't hear about families murdered in their homes? The good citizens of Gaza joined in. Some 1,200 civilians were raped, shot, beheaded, mutilated or burned alive. Hamas even wore body cams to upload video to the internet. In a few cases, Hamas grabbed victims' phones and sent video of their being tortured or killed to their families as it happened. There are still clips floating around, Jack, you could check that out.

How would the Irish react to such a thing?

The Israelis went into Gaza to rescue the hostages--getting hostages back is so important to the Jews that in 2011 the Israelis traded 1,027 Hamas prisoners for one Israel soldier, Gilad Shalit--and to stop this from ever happening again. The IDF went to war as a modern army, in uniform. Before they bombed anywhere they dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave; they even sent text alerts out to specific neighborhoods before action. Hamas terrorists wore civilian clothes, hid weapons and explosives in schools, hospitals, in tunnels running throughout the Gaza strip. Hostages were smuggled into the tunnels and held there on Oct. 7; there's security cam video showing this as well. The tunnel system built by the 'poor people of Gaza' is almost as big as the subway system in NYC. Hostages were also held in private homes, including those of UN aid workers.

There's an article about the Catholic Just War doctrine that I posted above. It's from a national Catholic newspaper that's quite conservative, owned by EWTN, Mother Angelica's TV network. In case you ever want to see what the Catholic view might be? It's on page 318, or here: https://www.ncregister.com/interview/roundtable-just-war-hamas-israel

If you want to talk genocide, death to all Jews is literally written into the Hamas constitution. There's an article in The Atlantic, a leftist, intellectual/academic magazine read by American policy makers. It will give you a broader view of what is actually happening in the Mideast, and why. Again, if you are actually interested in learning something. The article is here: https://archive.ph/d7b7i

Finally, I did hesitate to post anything personal. I thought perhaps drawing the contrast between the way Israelis view their society and Iranians do was instructive. I'd never met anyone who was in fear of a honor killing, or had seen women literally beaten on the street by other women in the 'morality police.' I was right to be hesitant. It only served as bait for your sarcasm.

 

No, that is not what I am saying.

Did you read the paragraph about the Israelis following the rules of war--such as they are--issuing warnings before attacks, identifying themselves vs. a terrorist force hiding among civilians, hiding weapons in schools, holding hostages in private homes and under hospitals?

John, why don't you look at the article on Just War and then come back to discuss.

Hamas did not allow its people to leave, even after the Israeli warnings. I believe this shows Israelis value lives more than Hamas does:

Hamas tells Gaza residents not to leave their homes after IDF warns civilians to evacuate
From CNN's Abeer Salman and Lucas Lilieholm

Hamas on Friday told Palestinians living in Gaza not to leave their homes, according to a statement sent to media organizations.

The armed group, which governs the territory, accused Israel of engaging in “psychological warfare” by sending messages that told Palestinian civilians and employees of international organizations to evacuate to the south...

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/...r-10-13-23/h_ad9fb74f40837ae2aca06c68bc57cd92

Edited to add: People always die in war. That is a tragedy and a given. To claim Israel is deliberately engaging in genocide is a lie.

Also, John, take a look at the article on the Hamas constitution. Or maybe I'll post it.

 

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology
A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

By Bruce Hoffman

“Not every German who bought a copy of Mein Kampf necessarily read it … But it might be argued that had more non-Nazi Germans read it before 1933 and had the foreign statesmen of the world perused it carefully while there was still time, both Germany and the world might have been saved from catastrophe.”
— William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

How many Israelis, or Jews, or anyone else for that matter, have read the 1988 Hamas Covenant or the revised charter that was issued in 2017? With 36 articles of only a few paragraphs’ length each in the former, and 42 concise statements of general principles and objectives in the latter, both are considerably shorter and more digestible than the 782-page original German-language edition of Mein Kampf. Moreover, unlike Hitler’s seminal work, which was not published in English until March 1939, excellent English translations of both the original Hamas Covenant and its successor can easily be found on the internet.

Read: What would Hamas do if it could do whatever it wanted?

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was, in fact, the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

1. 1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
2. 2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
3. 3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
4. 4. The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.

Thus, as fighting rages in Israel and Gaza, and may yet escalate and spread, pleas for moderation, restraint, negotiation, and the building of pathways to peace are destined to find no purchase with Hamas. The covenant makes clear that holy war, divinely ordained and scripturally sanctioned, is in Hamas’s DNA.

Israel’s Complete and Utter Destruction

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Lest there be any doubt about Hamas’s sanguinary aims toward Israel and the Jewish people, the introduction goes on to explain:

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

Article 11 spells out why this annihilation of Jews is required. Palestine is described as an “Islamic Waqf”—an endowment predicated on Muslim religious, education, or charitable principles and therefore inviolate to any other peoples or religions. Accordingly, the territory that now encompasses Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is
consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up … This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

In sum, any compromise over this land, including the moribund two-state solution, much less coexistence among faiths and peoples, is forbidden.

Holy War

Article 12 links the exclusive Muslim right to the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River with the religious obligation incumbent upon all Muslims to wage a war of religious purification. “Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy becomes the individual duty of every Moslem [sic], male or female”—a point later reiterated in Articles 14 and 15.

Read: Hamas’s attack confounds Middle East experts

Article 15, moreover, highlights the importance of inculcating this mindset in children. “It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin).” Along these lines, Article 30 also points out that jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy: “Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters [sic]” are called upon to “fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.”

Nothing Is Negotiable

Article 13 rejects any kind of negotiations for, or peaceful resolution of, Jewish and Palestinian territorial claims to the land. On this point, the covenant is completely transparent: “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.” Nor are these words historical artifacts. Hamas “military” communiqués heralding the triumphs of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood end with the words “It is a jihad of victory or martyrdom.”

Indeed, this part of the covenant stresses that:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight.

The covenant further says of international negotiations that the “Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.”

Continued

 

Continued

Base Anti-Semitism

The covenant is especially noteworthy for its trafficking in odious calumnies and conspiracy theories about the Jewish people and the alleged superhuman influence and power that they exercise over all mankind. “In their Nazi treatment [of other peoples], the Jews made no exception for women or children,” Article 20 begins. “Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honor. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals.”

Article 22 advances this theme. Channeling the fantastical arguments of the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which is discussed in Article 32), Hitler’s Mein Kampf, and the Ku Klux Klan, it elaborates on the depth and breadth of Jewish perfidy. The language of this article is so unhinged that it is worth quoting in full:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realization of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

Article 28 continues this theme and again cites various civic organizations and fraternal orders as the malign vessels through which the Jewish people relentlessly pursue their goal of global domination. Alcoholism and drug addiction are integral tools of the Jews’ nefarious plot:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

After Palestine, Article 32 explains, “the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion,’ and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.” Standing against this overwhelming force is Hamas—“the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road.”

Tucked into Article 31, toward the end of the delineation of its three dozen guiding principles, Hamas claims that all faiths can “coexist in peace and quiet with each other” under its unique “wing of Islam.” But lest anyone be lulled into believing the promise of this paradise on Earth, Hamas demands as the price of entry full allegiance and unquestioning compliance with its rule: “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.”

A Kinder, Gentler Charter?

On May 1, 2017, Hamas issued a revised charter. Gone were the “vague religious rhetoric and outlandish utopian pronouncements” of the earlier document, according to analysis prepared for the Institute of Palestine Studies. Instead, the new charter was redolent of “straightforward and mostly pragmatic political language” that had “shifted the movement’s positions and policies further toward the spheres of pragmatism and nationalism as opposed to dogma and Islamism.” Nonetheless, the analyst was struck by “the movement’s adherence to its founding principles” alongside newly crafted, “carefully worded” language suggesting moderation and flexibility.
Israel immediately dismissed the group’s effort to promote a kinder, gentler image of its once avowedly bloodthirsty agenda. “Hamas is attempting to fool the world, but it will not succeed,” a spokesperson from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office predicted.

In fact, the new document differs little from its predecessor. Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)—which is portrayed as “a natural right, both individual and collective,” divinely ordained and “inalienable.” That right, therefore “cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international,” thus again rendering negotiations or efforts to achieve any kind of political settlement between Israel and the Palestinians irrelevant, void, or both. Article 27 forcefully reinforces this point: “There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.”

The most striking departure from the 1988 charter is that the 2017 statement of principles and objectives now claims that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist and, accordingly, sees “Zionists” and not “Jews” as the preeminent enemy and target of its opprobrium. The revised document therefore modulates the blatantly anti-Semitic rhetoric of its predecessor but once again decries Zionism as central to a dark, conspiratorial plot of global dimensions.

For centuries, Jews have been blamed for causing the anti-Semitism directed against them. The new Hamas charter perpetuates this libel, arguing, “It is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity” and who are therefore responsible for the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.

(Continued)

 

(Continued)

The Zionist project, according to Article 14, is a “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.” Article 15 goes on to claim that Zionism is the enemy not just of the Palestinian people but of all Muslims, and that it poses “a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.” The following article then attempts to thread the needle between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism: “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion.”

Although the new charter lacks the febrile denunciations of “initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences” of its predecessor, it makes Hamas’s position on Israel’s existence abundantly clear. “The establishment of ‘Israel’ is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,” Article 18 states, “and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah.” Driving home this point, the new Article 19 proclaims, “There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation [sic] or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.”

As for the promise of peace between Israel and Palestine expressed in the 1993 Oslo Accords, Article 21 is explicit in stating Hamas’s rejection of that landmark agreement: “Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them.”

Hamas affirms, instead, its commitment to liberating Palestine by force. “Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws,” the document states. “At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.”

Read: There are no rules

Perhaps the most astonishing statement in the entire new document—issued by a terrorist group that has forbade elections in Gaza since 2007—is the fatuous claim in Article 29 that “Hamas believes in, and adheres to, managing its Palestinian relations on the basis of pluralism, democracy, national partnership, acceptance of the other and the adoption of dialogue.”

Plus Ça Change, Plus C’est la Même Chose

In the British historian Richard J. Evans’ magisterial account of the Third Reich, he recounts the reflections of a young German woman who’d read Mein Kampf in 1933: “Like many of her upper-middle-class friends, she discounted the violence and antisemitism of the National Socialists as passing excesses which would soon disappear.” Until October 7, 2023, many in Palestine, Israel, and elsewhere may similarly have dismissed or discounted the acuity of Hamas’s aims and ambitions, its true objectives, and its as-yet-unfulfilled master plan as stated in both the 1988 and 2017 documents. Few are as ignorant or uncomprehending now.

Bruce Hoffman is a professor at Georgetown University. He is also the Shelby Cullom & Katharine W. Davis Senior Fellow for Counterterrorism and Homeland Security at the Council on Foreign Relations and the George H. Gilmore Senior Fellow at the U.S. Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center.

 

Not denying it. Very, very sad to watch your country slip away. In the end I do believe that our Holy Mother will will come to our rescue.

 

My thoughts exactly. Slip away says it all. The hardest thing to see is the glee among some here in US who are cheering it on. A refrain from an old Joni Mitchell song comes to mind. " don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got til its gone. ..."

 

I worry about the fortitude of people in the West, especially our young men if something really, really bad were to happen. There is a real softness to our young that was not even there when I was young

We need a strong back to take the burden when life turns hard and grim. Sadly I think most are very far from having such a back .

 

I've visited America many times. I spent a summer in Chicago when I was very young. And I spent a couple of summers working in wildwood on the Jersey shore when I was a student many years ago, and travelling etc (- the happiest 2 summers of my entire life!) And latterly, when my kids were young, we did Florida and Disney a couple of times.
There is no country quite like it! I adore it. The people. The scenery. The cities. The food. Omg, I long to go back and visit some of those places. Then there's the music of John Denver - his depictions of the rocky mountains and Montana etc. The John Wayne westerns. And down the years those big, blockbuster heavyweight boxing matches...... Omg I could go on and on about what America has given the world and how great it is...

I longingly lament what the leadership of America have done to this great, great country. It is they (much like the leadership of Israel, the UK, Canada, Ireland etc etc.) that have destroyed our respective countries. I take no pleasure in seeing any country broken; but I am particularly saddened by what they have done/are doing to the America of my memories. If I ever get the opportunity to go back, I am worried about what I will find. And that saddens me. (NB. They are actively destroying my own country, Ireland, too - it will soon also be unrecognisable).

These leaders butcher, maim and destroy in the name of the United States.

America is a superpower; so they use that power to promote destruction. The UK is a financial hub; they use that financial power to promote destruction. Israel is a divisive state; they use that to promote further division.
Etc etc. etc.

The leaders we have in place are despots and Satanists. They have positions of power and control in all of our countries - I believe they got into these positions via freemasonry - as our lady warned. The actions of our leaders are indefensible (which is why I fail to comprehend why and how people ---- even here on this Christian website --- try to defend what they do).

Now, here we are; we have reached the point were they are so embedded in our power structures that it is only God - who can untangle their tentacles and save the world from their demonic plans.

 

Thank you, Luan. I love Paul's analogy: it paints a clear picture. Saving faith is a faith that first, perseveres, and second, is fruitful.

Thus:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

To round out the above post (#16292), we must include the following, for to abide requires us to be grafted in and to be nourished:

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

And:

John 6:3 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

 

There are days that I could just scream when I see what is happening. Our nations are in desperate need of a spiritual revolution.

 

Jack you have nailed it. Point by point. The people of our respective countries have become a captured population. Even though we hate what's happening we seem unable to stop it. Only God can fix this for sure.

 

Yes John, our youth are so attached to their i-phones, if the grid goes down I fear for what would happen. I have mine hooked to my belt and I pull it out about 20X a day. But the younger generations do not know how to function without it. It is in their hands most of the time. Now, don't get me wrong, our 6 children are far flung, and if this was 40 years ago, keeping in touch with no visual aides would be down right lonely. But to not be able to readily function without it? WOW! Scary!!

Lord have Mercy!

 

Of course it is correct to say that "the Old Covenant" has never been revoked, as the Catechism does. But that "Old Covenant" was between God and the true Israel (the spiritual Israel) not the counterfeit Israel (the fleshly Israel) of the mistaken ancient Jewish or Zionist interpretation.

St. Paul explains the difference:

For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants. (Romans 9:6-8)​

Those who claim to be "Jews" in our day, and by this claim they mean to reject the divinity of Jesus Christ, are not the true Israel. They are little antichrists, as St. John says:

"Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. [1 John 2:22]

"And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. [1 John 4:3]

"For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist. [2 John 1:7]​

 

Christy, you're right.. my response included sarcasm. I was absolutely flabbergasted that someone could attempt to justify what's happening to children and babies in Gaza! Nevertheless, sarcasm is wrong. I apologise. I should've been more measured.
That said, your logic on this matter - in my opinion, is drastically flawed. For some reason there are people - who are far removed from conflict zones - and who've never saw the pain that armed violence inflicts upon a population; yet think it excusable for an army to murder and butcher and slaughter innocent civilians - as long as it has God on its side and a just war footing from which to excuse the brutality.
We here in Ireland butchered one another for decades - both sides believing that God was on their team. And to be honest, I'm not sure that God ever was too comfortable with us murdering one another in his name.
I'd hazard a guess too that he's not that comfortable with the butchery in Gaza either. And I think that's the thing, it's just plain old genocide over there - no matter how it's dressed up.

 

Two things. I am not for this war, it is a tragedy. I said, specifically, that the Israeli incursion into Gaza meets the criteria of the Catholic Church's Doctrine of Just War.

I explained why I thought this. More importantly, I linked to an article that explained how at least the early part of the war had played out, and how Church doctrine comes into play in judging the conflict. I also posted an article on genocide, because that term's being thrown around, too.

I thought these were reasonable things to post on a Catholic forum. I am interested in doctrine. I am interested in learning more about moral theology and how it applies to the real world.

What I got back were accusations that I was rooting for baby killing! I was told no one needed to read the articles I cited, because...baby killing!

What I said was that civilian deaths are a tragic outcome. No one here wants to see an army "murder and butcher and slaughter innocent civilians," it's is not anything anyone cheers. I would never accuse anyone of doing that. I do, however, accept the need for self-defense in some circumstances, and in defense of others. I still think it makes a difference if a war is chosen by one side, or if it is an existential war, a fight for survival. I have family who served (Air Force and Navy). Whether the cause is just makes a difference to them.

It's obvious you're emotional about this, for good reason. No, I've never lived in a war zone. That may come to pass, I have a few years left. I don't see things the way you do because of your experiences. I couldn't judge your intentions. You do not see things the way I do, or understand intentions.

The point I tried to make with the Israeli woman and the Iranian woman--they are real people--is that one came from a functioning society, although flawed, and the other escaped a dystopian country. I wrote about them because someone posted what I see as vile antisemitic smears.