Our Lady of Fatima travels to Rome at the request of two Popes

Thanks for the clarification Lumena.
I found it difficult to accept the original posting as I have never heard anything about the 3rd Secret ever put as baldly as that.

 

MS7 I haven't heard this one before, or maybe I haven't paid attention (Mary as the Bride of Christ.)
Can you reference somewhere I might learn more on this?
(I didn't even know that the Bride of Christ properly referred even to the Church. I thought it properly referred to the "New Jerusalem" which replaces the present "imperfect" earthly Church at the end of time just as glorified bodies replace our present imperfect earthly bodies.)

 

Guys what am I missing? I thought Lucia reportedly agreed that consecration adequate to what the Virgin asked has been done?


As to those who would be unwilling, they would expose themselves as wolves by this refusal.
This sounds a little over the top. At the end of the day Fatima is Private Revelation. So why would the Pope try to command bishops to join him in an overt act clearly signifiying public acceptance of that Private Revelation. To do so would seem to force their consciences - consciences already given the right to reject Private Revelation without blame by Church Teaching itself. They would of course be invited...which seems to be the case.

To call such bishops "wolves".... .

 

Blue Horizon said....Guys what am I missing?
I thought Lucia reportedly agreed that consecration adequate to what the Virgin asked has been done?

Im sure in an earlier thread you had come around to accepting the consecration had not been accomplished.Although you didnt rate Antonio Socci highly.

 

Father Amorth say's it best.

 

He will have to command them. To fulfill the request....'The pope with all the Bishops' The request is not 'The Pope with the Bishops who respond to your invitation' And the Pope can command from his Bishops whatever he pleases, As long as its not against faith and morals.A Bishop would not have to believe in Fatima to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart.

 

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

...Furthermore, married couples and Christian parents should follow their own proper path (to holiness) by faithful love. They should sustain one another in grace throughout the entire length of their lives. They should embue their offspring, lovingly welcomed as God's gift, with Christian doctrine and the evangelical virtues. In this manner, they offer all men the example of unwearying and generous love; in this way they build up the brotherhood of charity; in so doing, they stand as the witnesses and cooperators in the fruitfulness of Holy Mother Church; by such lives, they are a sign and a participation in that very love, with which Christ loved His Bride and for which He delivered Himself up for her.(11*) A like example, but one given in a different way, is that offered by widows and single people, who are able to make great contributions toward holiness and apostolic endeavor in the Church. Finally, those who engage in labor—and frequently it is of a heavy nature—should better themselves by their human labors. They should be of aid to their fellow citizens. They should raise all of society, and even creation itself, to a better mode of existence. Indeed, they should imitate by their lively charity, in their joyous hope and by their voluntary sharing of each others' burdens, the very Christ who plied His hands with carpenter's tools and Who in union with His Father, is continually working for the salvation of all men. In this, then, their daily work they should climb to the heights of holiness and apostolic activity.

Mary, Bride of Christ and Sign of the Faithfulby Jenny Schroedel and Reverend John Schroedel

http://www.netplaces.com/virgin-mar...-bride-of-christ-and-sign-of-the-faithful.htm

The Virgin Mary has often been referred to as the Bride of Christ, especially in medieval Western devotion. This term may seem strange, in particular because the Virgin Mary is most obviously the mother of Christ. But when you consider the first title, that Mary is considered the mother of the Church, coupled with the scriptural idea that the Church is the Bride of Christ, you can see how the images of Mary and the Church are sometimes used interchangeably.
The other idea that is closely linked to this one is that the Virgin Mary acts in perfect harmony with her son. Clearly Mary is Christ's mother, but she is never above him, and she never dominates him. Instead, she cooperates with him. The two of them function in perfect unity in the way that a healthy married couple might. This may be part of the reason why when couples are married in the Eastern Orthodox Church the wedding icons given to them are often of Christ and the Virgin Mary. The perfect harmony of their relationship provides an image of how all of our relationships should be.
The Virgin Mary is also seen as a sign for the faithful because her life was a perfect witness. She pointed the way for all believers by living in dynamic obedience to the will of God. Her desire to open herself to God's will for her entire life is an image of the life that all Christians are called to — a life of surrender, brave faith, and obedience to the will of God. The Virgin Mary is also seen as a sign to the faithful because her example offers guidance to all those who seek it — especially those who are living in difficult circumstances.
Mary's life was a sign that things are never quite as they seem — an unmarried, pregnant teenager from Nazareth was able to show how the coming of Christ represented shifting realities in both the temporal and ultimate sense. The Virgin Mary was also seen as a sign because her story made the spiritual world a visible and real part of the mundane realities of secular life.

 

I don't know..... I don't think I buy this.
Mary is Mother of God, Mother of the Church, spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Catechism defines her without any reference as Bride of Christ: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

In fact it explicitly states: 973 ".................She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body."

The reference to Christ delivering Himself up for His bride in Lumen Gentium is a reference to His Church.

In a weak connection of logic, we could all say Mary, as "the image and beginning of the Church", thus shares membership in this Body of His, which IS the bride of Christ. But I think that diminishes her role if we use that logic.

...These backflips above don't answer the weird reference in LTTW of Mary saying "My Church".....

Any other precedents out there of Mary saying the Church is "My Church"? I don't pretend to know definitively if she has ever spoken this way before. That is why I genuinely asked the question the first time.

 

Mightn't we all describe the Church as ,'My Church'? In the same way as we say, 'My city', 'My country', 'My family'?

Not so much in describing our ownership of them as in their ownership of us? Not in other words as an exclusive claim of relationship but an inclusive one?

...and so when we say, 'My family', we are saying they 'own' us just as much as saying, 'We own them'.

 

As in 'My Faith'. In the Eastern rite it is used that our Lady is symbolically 'the Bride of Christ' just as she is the NEW EVE AND JESUS IS THE NEW ADAM---so what does that make her? I know that it is not common to give our Lady that title, but I have heard it preached and in writing.

 

I suppose you are right (as in a parish), but I don't know many who would say that in context of the whole church, unless speaking to non-catholics apologetically, and even then, it would seem self-centered for any of us to refer to the church that way in an apologetic conversation.

I am usually the one quoting the scripture passage that says not to "despise prophecy" or quench the Holy Spirit, and I would never want anyone to be deprived of current warnings and exhortations of the Blessed Mother. That is why I am usually open to them all at first, and rely on the "testing" that so many of you usually do every day of such things. However, when I read most of these messages, things leap off the page to me like dissonant chords, and I get a very uneasy feeling sometimes. Not so with Fatima and even Garabandal.

I always read them when people post them to the locutions.org thread (and I've read them on the site as well), because I am still seeking the voice of the Blessed Mother. But I try not to comment on that thread because I don't think its necessary for me to insert any negative feelings there. However, when they keep getting inserted into other threads like this one, without a citation that they are from LTTW, but instead just an inference that these are the words of Mary verbatim, then I get that uneasy feeling again.

 

I'll give you a parallel. Most have discerned that MDM messages are heretical and false. Yet many, in their zeal to point this out, begin to call those who haven't discerned their falsehood "followers of MDM". I've read many angry or pompus posts referring to "MDM and her followers" and how people "feel sorry for them".

Well, aside from probably a couple collaborators of MDM in her web publishing (and I suppose also anyone who is actually organizing crusade prayer groups and promoting MDM locally, which I have never actually experienced in my circles or my community), I would venture a guess that most of these so-called "followers" are just Catholic believers who are longing to hear the words of Mary and Jesus, have probably paid attention to Fatima, Garabandal, and Medjugorje, yet do not have the support around them, or the theological knowledge to discern the heresies. In other words, most of them are not your enemies, and they are not some self-contained cult, but rather have just included these messages within their faith, and it could be very detrimental for them if they are led to perdition because of this inclusion.

I don't think its a coincidence that the fastest way to become initially aware of MDM, if one has never heard of her, is to go on Google, with thoughts about the Garabandal prophecies, and type in "The Warning" or something similar.......in an attempt to find some Garabandal News.......

In the same way, promoters of LTTW could be referred to as "followers" of this anonymous seer. And it would be just as wrong to define most of them by their current belief that these messages are genuine, even if others see heresy in them, because it is only a very small aspect of their faith.....(though it could be just as detrimental if there are clever hersies and falsehoods within).

Using the small population of those adhering to them on this site, I get the feeling that many people with a certain affinity for another set of modern apparitions find the opposite of dissonance in the LTTW messages....

 

It is surprising how many supposed, 'Messages/messengers', Jon have this huge uncertainty about them.

I think of them though like balls up in the air that will one way or another thump back down to Earth. Or like a satellite circling the Earth that will loose its trajectory of orbit and fly out into outer space.

I have my doubts about these one myself, although some of the messages are very,very beautiful.

Its true some folk seem to adopt such messages as their own. I suppose that's part of being human. Time will tell.
I am waiting myself.

 

I often use that model myself, Marti when I think of Mary, Marti..and its true its one that has often being used.


But I was listening to Scott Hahn the other night and he was talking about scriptural references to Mary in the Old Testament and he said something I had never heard before. He said they referred to Mary as, 'Queen Mother', 'Gebirah'.

I have never heard this expressed before but it seems so beautiful and very scriptural to me.

Maybe everyone else has heard of this before? It is a new idea for me, I don't know how I missed it.

Very beautiful.

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right." (1Kings 2:19)



http://www.kathyschley.com/Catholic_Churc/Queen.html

 

I know this firsthand, because my brother was one of these people. He had just lost his youngest son 1 year ago in a car accident at 18 years old. Was turning toward deepening his faith in the midst, which is still deepening now. Yet he longs for the pain and despair of the current state of the world and the church (and his own family) to experience the illumination of conscience and he looks forward to things of heaven. And he admits some of his longing is to know his son again in eternity.

In his anguish, the MDM messages seemed hopeful to him that prophesied events were beginning to happen. Yet he attends mass at least twice a week, goes to confession monthly, and tries to evangelize all friends and neighbors.

Because of his enthusiasm, I had to read them also and offer my thoughts to him about the problems I saw in the MDM messages. He has now stepped away from them, and has stopped reading them daily, and is trusting that Christ and His Church and His Mother will lead us through what is forthcoming. He has also read Padraig's year long blog about his life, and is beginning to take Padraig's advice on how to pray.

 

I've heard Scott Hahn's Queen Mother parallels. I think he makes a tremendous case as he unveils the typology in the Old Testament, and how it is revealed and fulfilled in Mary Queen of Heaven. It helps in my Glorious Mysteries meditation on the 5th mystery.

I also really loved his 4th cup study and talk (about the cup of Consummation at the Passover, the parallels to the 1st Passover with the hyssop branch and the blood, the four cups of wine, fulfilled by the 3 cups at the last supper, followed by the 4th cup offered on the way of the cross, but only accepted on a hyssop branch on the cross, and lastly the consuming of the lamb of the orginal Passover after the 4th cup, and its fulfillment after Jesus drank the 4th on the cross, said "it is finished", followed by US consuming the Lamb to this day.....)

 

Yes I heard this too Jon.

I just think Scott Hahn is such a huge gift not only to the Church in the USA but the Church throughout the whole world.

His Marian Devotion is such a gift heavily rooted as it is scripture. I know very little about his personal life, but drawing on his writings and homilies I would not be surprised to see him canonised.

As a matter of fact if we look right across the Church in the USA at the moment I suspect we could all compose quite a list of people who could be raised to the altar as saints one day. Its nice to think of psoitve things amongst so much that is disturbing.

Scott Hahn is a huge light. In fact the whole of Steubenville University seem to glow.

 

Let me know how he gets on, Jon.

I watch , 'The Journey Home series' on EWTN and am its biggest fan.

One thing comes across so well is that again and again people turn to Christ for a deeper relationship in the midst of pain.

Well I have to get these dogs walking up the mountains.

Concerning the Illumination I more and more these last few months have felt the veil between Earth and heaven thin. I wonder if I am the only one.

 

I'm sure you are aware of the book of KINGS and where the Queen Mother kneels before the KING and begs him on behalf of the PEOPLE ...THEY went to HER and SHE went to HIM....And he says, "I could NEVER refuse MY MOTHER..."

that was a parallel of JESUS AND MARY AND US!!

 

The beauty of the Eastern Rite is that they have kept the 'flowery' language and the deep symbology. We have seriously lost that in the Roman Rite. When you walk into the Church, you bow before the crucifix and light a candle and this is where you 'leave your cares of the world and your sinfulness'.

Then you walk through the doors into the where the Icons and pews are and this is the place of worship. The Icons are the windows to heaven that we yearn to look through and sometimes God allows this. The wall of Icons is the Iconistasis which is the Angels and Saints and of course Jesus and Mary. They stand on behalf of heaven to give witness to God and his Glory.

The Sanctuary is where the Priest, deacon and Altar servers are. (Only men are allowed back there) exceptions are if you are cleaning it. The entire Divine Liturgy is like flowing water that comes over you. There is a beginning, a middle and an end. My daughter saw a Byzantine funeral. She wasn't ever sure she liked the Church and preferred a larger church, but once she saw the funeral and saw where the 'funeral durge' came from (the music is low tones and rocks back and forth) and they put the casket in the ground, people throw flowers in, they get the bobcat and dump the remaining dirt and the family takes the sod and puts it on top and steps on it until you cannot tell if someone is buried there! Its a finality that few can appreciate, but she did and she was just a teen. She liked that. She said it made her feel safe and that they didn't just leave the hole open and walk away....then everyone goes and eats etc....lol

One of the things I always thought was interesting was that 'the doors' were considered 'veils to heaven'. Then when the priest takes the purificator and fans the Chalice with the blessed Sacrament in it , this is a veil. Then when people are talking about the 'thinning veil' between heaven and earth, or the thinning veil of the Blessed Sacrament in the Monstrance...well, in the Eastern Rite that 'VEIL IS MARY'. I find that VERY VERY COOL!! There are many references to 'the VEIL' and I'd love to do more research on it when I get time...