I think its possible for true apparitions and locutions to criticize and warn of evil in the Church. I believe in Fatima, the 3rd secret, Garabandal as a continuation/affirmation, Akita, etc. But something about the LTTW messages causes me to have a hard time recognizing Our Lady's personality in them. Side note: Peter, can you reconcile the La Sallette prohecies and strange timeline with other thoughts such as Fatima, and the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, and era of peace for example? 25 years of not really a triumph, then even greater evils, then whatever? I just don't get it, and it serves to confuse and distort for me. Just wondered if you have ever anayzed these ideas together in detail. I have a real problem with it right now.
A few more general points: - Firstly, I think it's necessary to remember that we are still in the discernment/monitoring phase with www.locutions.org Of course we can't yet discount the possibility that these are coming from an over-active religious imagination. What would be really helpful here would be for Monsignor Esseff to unpack his statement that 'I have discerned the validity of these locutions'. He must be pretty sure of this, and given that they are coming from someone under his spiritual direction his word does carry weight (more than ours here on this forum), but the obvious logical question is 'how did he discern them'? Was there some external manifestation during the locutions' pre-2010 phase that he's not mentioning? Some fulfilled words of prophecy? Or did he himself receive some mystical confirmation about this? - Secondly, my sense is that this body of messages really needs to be assessed as a whole; trying to make an evaluation on the basis of individual phrases that may sound odd is a perilous business if the broader context is not taken into account, as misreadings can easily occur that way. For example, taken in isolation, 'Mary's' reference to 'My Church' might sound insufficiently Christocentric, but once you've read the locutions in their totality (completely classical theological pedagogy in simple language) it's not nearly so alarming. - Thirdly, concerning the questions of whether a) the Consecration of Russia has been done to the letter and b) whether the Third Secret of Fatima has been revealed in its entirety, there is a substantial body of evidence independent of LTTW pointing to a negative response on both counts. Furthermore, this evidence does not depend on blanket acceptance of everything published by Fr Gruner and his apostolate; my personal view is that their historical work on the Third Secret is in fact extremely useful, but that they have gone too far in their anti-ecumenical critique of the Second Vatican Council. Here they have departed from the line consistently held by the Magisterium (and also by a number of mystics, e.g. Don Ottavio Michelini), namely that Vatican II was indeed instigated by the Holy Spirit, but that - as always - the dark side tried to exploit every ambiguity and loophole for its own ends.
Jon, If I'm not mistaken, there is a remark about this sort of thing in a set of ongoing alleged Spanish-language locutions which I read recently and which bears repeating, as I think it would be sound advice even if it were the result of nothing more than 'private meditation' (can't remember who this was to - may have been Javier Viesca, who is well worth reading). I'm paraphrasing from memory here, but the basic idea is this: 'Don't automatically jump to the conclusion that a prophecy is false because a timeline didn't deliver, because timelines can be altered by human behaviour, repentance, intercession ...' A classic Biblical illustration of this is Jonah: when he finally gets over his bout of cowardice and delivers God's message to Nineveh, he says "Forty more days and Nineveh wil be overturned" (Jonah 3:4). As simple as that. Nothing conditional about it. What happens? The people repent and Nineveh is spared, much to Jonah's chagrin. Was the message false?
I am not sure about LTTW because she stated that there would be a long conclave, the person chosen would not even think it possible for them to be chosen (Pope Francis had a lot of votes going for him when Pope Benedict XVI was elected according to media reports (which should not have even been reported about, but were), and the locutionist claimed the US should get involved in Syria (what...to help the rebels that just martyred a Catholic priest and who have kidnapped two Catholic bishops?). I also noted that Msgr. Esseff (sp?) alarmingly sent an alert that we should all be preparing with food and other storage for the future. That sounds too worldly to me. Maybe practical but not 'holy in the sense to trust in Providence of God that we proclaim when we say the Our Father... give us this day our daily bread.' Peace to you all
Regarding Syria. The U.S. was being chastised for undermining the situation. God knows the media is lying about all the info. How many headlines are saying Russia is arming the rebels? NONE. But they are. NOW so is the U.S. --God have MERCY! I'm sorry, I feel sorry for anyone who is NOT preparing physically. Thats just common sense. WHO IS TO SAY Pope Francis thought it would be possible that HE WAS CHOSEN??? He didn't even WANT TO BE POPE!!! He said so himself!
I understand your reservations here (the one about the conclave was one of mine, until I realized that the words 'long conclave' were an editorial heading, not integral to the locutions). LTTW is still very much under scrutiny right now. However, it should be said that Msgr Esseff is far from the only one talking about drastic food shortages at the moment... similar predictions are also coming from - Edson Glauber, the visionary connected with the approved apparitions of Itapiranga in Brazil (see the thread on 'Approved Apparitions in the Amazon') - Luz de Maria Bonilla (www.revelacionesmarianas.com), a Costa Rican seer with 23 years of locutions behind her whose image of the Guadalupe Tilma has apparently started exsuding oil (in the manner of Soufanieh) from both its eyes in recent weeks - two Protestant visionaries who are considered extremely credible in Pentecostal circles (Terry Bennett, Glynda Linkous, the latter's locutions also now being relayed by several Catholic websites) Yes, there are many counterfeit visionaries around as well as well-intentioned but over-enthusiastic souls who cannot distinguish between Divine inspiration and the workings of their own subjective imagination. BUT if even one of these folks is receiving authentic messages - which I very much suspect is the case -, Msgr Esseff's advice is far from alarmist.
The bible even gives examples of being prepared...Joseph interprets the the Kings dream Joseph said to the king, “The two dreams mean the same thing; God has told you what he is going to do.26 The seven fat cows are seven years, and the seven full heads of grain are also seven years; they have the same meaning. 27 The seven thin cows which came up later and the seven thin heads of grain scorched by the desert wind are seven years of famine. 28 It is just as I told you—God has shown you what he is going to do.29 There will be seven years of great plenty in all the land of Egypt. 30 After that, there will be seven years of famine, and all the good years will be forgotten, because the famine will ruin the country. 31 The time of plenty will be entirely forgotten, because the famine which follows will be so terrible. 32 The repetition of your dream means that the matter is fixed by God and that he will make it happen in the near future. 33 “Now you should choose some man with wisdom and insight and put him in charge of the country. 34 You must also appoint other officials and take a fifth of the crops during the seven years of plenty. 35 Order them to collect all the food during the good years that are coming, and give them authority to store up grain in the cities and guard it. 36 The food will be a reserve supply for the country during the seven years of famine which are going to come on Egypt. In this way the people will not starve.”
I don't disagree with what you said here. And I don't assume LaSalette to be false, especially since at least some aspects of it are Church approved, correct? (though I have no idea if there are time periods, details, or unconfirmed origins of any messages that are part of its entirety). My issue is that many people anticipate the LaSalette chronology to be accurate, and are actively awaiting the fulfillment of the events in that order. I have seen several references to the specific 25 year period mentioned on this very forum, and attempts to place that 25 years in context with Garabandal and Fatima. Therefore, from that perspective, would you personally find it difficult to reconcile these ideas as others have tried to do? I certainly do, but would have less trouble if I interpreted it as you inferred in your initial response (e.g. "a timeline that didn't deliver.....").
I'm with Padraig here. The alarming thing about these supposed apparitions now seems to be that I am getting a feel of the MDM apparitions only to a lesser degree. In order to keep one's self believing in these apparitions one almost has to now get into the, 'let's attack the hierarchy and the character of the Church' just like MDM (just to a lesser degree as I have already stated) in order to defend them (LTTW) as previous posts here have shown. Some are searching through 2000 years of apparitions to justify it being okay to criticize if not attack the hierarchy of the Church. Hey, maybe you could look to the MDM apparitions for that justification (sorry...had to get that little dig in...hehe). There is a growing logic that seems to parallel MDM. As usual I could be way off though.
LTTW authenticity is still to be determined. It makes several specific predictions regarding the consecration of Russia, Jerusalem, Pope Francis, etc. These will either come to pass or not. As Peter said, any individual message needs to be put in context. To me LTTW's approach to the Church and Pope Francis is the polar opposite of MDM. According to LTTW, Pope Francis is Mary's chosen one and the Church is being prepared for the coming storms. As far as the tone or style goes, I'll have to defer to the more experienced posters here. I'm a still a newbie to all this prophecy stuff!
I don't see that in these latest messages posted here and the further discussion after their posting.
All the previous messages seemed to put the current Pope on a pedestal, as some kind of chosen one. If I believe them then I should be fanatic Francis supporter, which isn't quite the case for a MDM believer. Let's see if the latest critical tone continues in future messages. If it does or if the messages start to counsel any disobedience to the Church then I'm done with them.
Honestly, I kind of hope they are not authentic because of the great darkness and evil that they predict are coming to the world. On what here in Iowa is a sunny and peaceful day its hard for me to imagine the world plunging into chaos any time soon. But that's probably what the people in Noah's time thought too, right?
That's why I used the words "to a lesser degree" twice. I don't mean to imply that they are equal to MDM but just a logical similar flow of criticizing the Church that I felt when I was reading the comments here. When the person says 'what right does my Church HAVE....', I see that as an attack on the Church past and present which the current Pope is the leader of and as of yet he has not done what the visionary has requested so I see that as a criticism of him also. I could be reading into that too much though. Regardless of that the latest messages are still critical of the CHURCH that just really make me feel uncomfortable.
I think it was Woman Clothed with the Sun who posted the LTTW locution calling for the Pope to clear his desk and proclaim a year dedicated to Fatima. It should be interesting to see what Pope Francis will do,..and if there is any validity to these locutions. In any case I try to do what the bible instructs when it comes to prophecy and retain what is good. Always standing with the Pope and the Magisterium.
I think sometimes apparent messages can be like the bath water when we let the water out. They form a little whirlpool and kind of sucks things down. The messages, true or false form their own force of its won to draw people on. It is in no way conclusive if a particular message gives a true prophecy. It seems obvious to me looking at the world situation at the moment that the Middle East is descending into chaos. If I then say that our Lady told me that the region will enter civil ways and violence and it does so, it does not mean Our Lady actually told me this. Similiarly I , personally believe the Third Secret of Fatima has not been revealed as it should have been and the Consecration of Russia has not taken place properly, but if I say Our Lady told me this and you happen to agree it still does not mean Our Lady actually appeared to me. You see the whirlpool effect? We keep nodding along and agreeing with the content of much of the messages and because we agree we are drawn on and on in. Few of us have the intelligence or insight of Lucifer who although he cannot foretell the future will have considerable insight into the flow and prediction of events. But though he could give some accurate predictions it does not mean he has been talking to Our Blessed Lady either.
