I was taught by Fr. Charles Fiore that there are 2 definitions of "the church". One is the mystical body of Christ which is the spotless bride of Christ. The second is made up of its members who (including the pope) are fallible and fall short and are sinful. This may have been the teaching of "the church" for the first 1900 years of its existence and subsequently changed after Vatican two. I don't know but in this context it would be fine to attack the second definition of "the church" but not the first.
What comes to my mind here is how the children of Fatima were told by Our Lady that we should all say, after each decade of the Rosary, "O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need." yet for some strange reason, the Church decreed that we all had to add something to this prayer dictated by Our Lady, something that She did not decree. According to the Church, we were to say "...those in most need of thy Mercy." Yet Our Lady was the author of that prayer. Why did the Church feel that they had to have the last word on how it would go? Why would they not approve that the prayer be said exactly as our Lady had dictated it? It is such a disgrace - that they would tamper with a prayer dictated so specifically by our Blessed Mother. I ask myself why? Why not just do as She has said? If the Church accepted that it was truly an apparition worthy of belief, then why did they feel they had to add anything to that prayer? Yes, She has every right to say that they have set aside her commands. People say that Pope John was "good" - yet he has been disobedient to no less than the Mother of God.
We are taught that no one can judge a pope. People believe that everything the pope says is infallible. What is the definition of papal infallibility? Please, nothing out of a book. There are serious disagreements over what is needed to meet those conditions and serious disagreements over what actually has been infallibly defined. Papalotry is a sin. I agree with you on the above, another "mystery" of the church. Please, don't get me started. Lumena, In your above piece, I would say the little c church, definition # 2 , not the big C Church, definition # 1, made those probable disobedient decisions.
Lumena, I agree. These messages were startling to me a first, but upon reflection - Mary is a mother and a woman, as well as the Queen of heaven. What mother wouldn't become frustrated if her children ignored her explicit directive for 53 years!!! And it is her Church, born under her care a Pentecost, just as my children are my children, given to me by God. These messages really nestle down into my heart - I think it's a mistake to reject them at this point. Time will tell...
I think I'm on the shelf over this one. I have a very hard time believing a modern visionary over Lucia herself who stated several times publicly and privately that all was fullfilled. Of course, Lucia COULD have been "forced" to do this by the Church authorities, but being she was already old, and being a poor nun who had really nothing to lose, why would she lie for them?
In the Book 'In her own words', in the back there is a section where Lucia is saying the consecration has been done....THESE ARE NOT HER WORDS. It is a narrative (approved at Vatican level) written by none other than Cardinal Bertone' himself. ALL the priests who were with the --then Fr. (or Bishop I forget) Bertone' when he went to visit Lucia the first and second time, have come forward (now that they have nothing to loose, but I'm not judging) and said that they were sent AS A GROUP to visit, record and witness the words of Lucia. At the last minute they were barred from even going into the room. ONLY BERTONE' went in by himself---and came out and announced the Consecration had been done. Even the translator is in on it. Its sooooooo THICK with deceit and conspiracy it boggles the mind. We certainly don't need to ask why....we know WHY........ THE EVIL ONE WANTS SOULS....PERIOD.
Many things are going to come to light. That is why we must not abandon the Church, the Holy Father, our Priests and the Bishops. Heads are gonna roll. Now what do you suppose is going to happen when fingers are pointed at Bertone'???? There is A LOT of FEAR THERE..... God have mercy!
We have around 2,000 years of Marian phenomena. I invite anyone to refer me to a reputable Marian apparition where Mary has criticised the Church, for I cannot think of one myself. If you can I will hold my hands up and admit I may have got it wrong on this one. If not....well the obvious question follows...why not?
Yes, millions have perished, MS7, and, Padraig, the responsibility for the performance of the Consecration has been held in the hands of the Papacy since the 1930s. That said, the responsibility to live the Fatima message has always been in the hands of the laity. How many have PERISHED due to my own infidelity and lack of boldness? God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whomsoever should believe in him should not perish, but have life everlasting!
I have always wondered about the consecration, and have been back and forth on it,..has it been done or not? Maybe it has been done but there is always room for the word "but"... I have never understood why why Russia was never mentioned specifically if it was asked for. For some it may seem a petty thing to leave the word Russia out of the consecration. Now I know Fr. Gruner has been looked at as a bad guy but he has stuck to his guns and isn't backing down. Who likes to say anything negative about the Church? We love and want to defend her. But there have been so many influential people,..have they all been acting according to Gods Will? That video of Amroth made sense to me. Maybe the consecration has been done, but maybe it wasn't done specifically the way Our Lord wanted it done,...so maybe it isn't fully excepted. Maybe it will take a lot of suffering before we finally get there, and the triumph will be when it is finally done according to the way it was requested. In the meantime we just hope and pray we can live according to Gods plan for us as individuals. Our Mother will show us the way, if we just listen to her....Ave Maria...
You're right Padraig: I can't recall our Blessed Mother ever criticizing the Church in another apparition. But I think more is at stake now than ever, and if ever the Church needed a scolding, it would be for with-holding the solution to our problems. When the third secret was revealed, my first reaction was "Where's the rest of it?" And the story about the fallen pope being John Paul the Great didn't ring true. I've been a dedicated child of Mary for almost 25 years now, and she scolded me for the first time a few months ago. We have a Mother who is "full of grace" as well as "terrible as an army in battle array". In the final battle, why wouldn't we see more of her ferocious love?
The Church Kathy is innately very very Conservative in her love of Traditions and wise Catholics deeply suspicious of the novel and the new. We build on the past in terms of renewal in order to go froward. If in 2,000 years Mary has never said anything like this through Popes who butchered, murdered tortured, lied stole, cheated and entire Curias that appeared rotten to the core and Mary never said critiicised the Church on any occasion before than we as Catholics must in upholding our traditions be very,very suspicious indeed. I came from a large family of seven brothers and sisters. One thing I always remember of my own mother was that she would never ever partake in criticism of another member of the family, even though well deserved . I could see from her face that often she agreed with we well deserved critque but she never got involved. Of course priivately on a one to one basis she would take people to task, but she would join in no group attacks. Much more than that she would never ever in a million years critiicise her family. Anything, even the slightest slur on her family and she would be just like a mother bear with her cubs. So it is with Mary as Mother of the Church. We are her family. She is the Mother bear. That's why you never heard her over the last 2,000 years criticising her family and why you don't hear her criticise her family now. She is the mummy bear.
I agree. There seems to be entirely too much willingness to accept these messages. From the beginning the language has never sounded heavenly, but much more worldly and modern, with many many cliches that are like a play by play sports event, commenting on current events. Even Vassula Ryden's descriptions of her locutions ring truer than these theologically (though all I've ever heard was two youtube videos from her, and never really read her writings TLIG.....). It is just a casual observation.
What about this? La Sallett? I'd say this was scolding the Church...at ALL LEVELS.....! http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1846sallette.asp "Melanie, what I am about to tell you now will not always be a secret. You may make it public in 1858. The priests, ministers of my Son, the priests, by their wicked lives, by their irreverence and their impiety in the celebration of the holy mysteries, by their love of money, their love of honours and pleasures, the priests have become cesspools of impurity. Yes, the priests are asking vengeance, and vengeance is hanging over their heads. Woe to the priests and to those dedicated to God who by their unfaithfulness and their wicked lives are crucifying my Son again! The sins of those dedicated to God cry out towards Heaven and call for vengeance, and now vengeance is at their door, for there is no one left to beg mercy and forgiveness for the people. There are no more generous souls, there is no one left worthy of offering a stainless sacrifice to the Eternal for the sake of the world. God will strike in an unprecedented way. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth! God will exhaust His wrath upon them, and no one will be able to escape so many afflictions together. The chiefs, the leaders of the people of God have neglected prayer and penance, and the devil has bedimmed their intelligence. They have become wandering stars which the old devil will drag along with his tail to make them perish. God will allow the old serpent to cause divisions among those who reign in every society and in every family. Physical and moral agonies will be suffered. God will abandon mankind to itself and will send punishments which will follow one after the other for more than thirty-five years. The Society of men is on the eve of the most terrible scourges and of gravest events. Mankind must expect to be ruled with an iron rod and to drink from the chalice of the wrath of God. May the curate of my Son, Pope Pius IX never leave Rome again after 1859; may he, however, be steadfast and noble, may he fight with the weapons of faith and love. I will be at his side. May he be on his guard against Napoleon: he is two-faced, and when he wishes to make himself Pope as well as Emperor, God will soon draw back from him. He is the master-mind who, always wanting to ascend further, will fall on the sword he wished to use to force his people to be raised up. Italy will be punished for her ambition in wanting to shake off the yoke of the Lord of Lords. And so she will be left to fight a war; blood will flow on all sides. Churches will be locked up or desecrated. Priests and religious orders will be hunted down, and made to die a cruel death. Several will abandon the faith, and a great number of priests and members of religious orders will break away from the true religion; among these people there will even be bishops. May the Pope guard against the performers of miracles. For the time has come when the most astonishing wonders will take place on the earth and in the air. continued....
In the year 1864, Lucifer together with a large number of demons will be unloosed from hell; they will put an end to faith little by little, even in those dedicated to God. They will blind them in such a way, that, unless they are blessed with a special grace, these people will take on the spirit of these angels of hell; several religious institutions will lose all faith and will lose many souls. Evil books will be abundant on earth and the sprits of darkness will spread everywhere a universal slackening of all that concerns the service of God. They will have great power over Nature: there will be churches built to serve these spirits. People will be transported from one place to another by these evil spirits, even priests, for they will not have been guided by the good spirit of the Gospel which is a spirit of humility, charity and zeal for the glory of God. On occasions, the dead and the righteous will be brought back to life. (That is to say that these dead will take on the form of righteous souls which had lived on earth, in order to lead men further astray; these so-called resurrected dead, who will be nothing but the devil in this form, will preach another Gospel contrary to that of the true Christ Jesus, denying the existence of Heaven; that is also to say, the souls of the damned. All these souls will appear as if fixed to their bodies).2 Everywhere there will be extraordinary wonders, as true faith has faded and false light brightens the people. Woe to the Princes of the Church who think only of piling riches upon riches to protect their authority and dominate with pride. The Vicar of my Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to large persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. The true faith to the Lord having been forgotten, each individual will want to be on his own and be superior to people of same identity, they will abolish civil rights as well as ecclesiastical, all order and all justice would be trampled underfoot and only homicides, hate, jealousy, lies and dissension would be seen without love for country or family. The Holy Father will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days but neither him nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God.
All the civil governments will have one and the same plan, which will be to abolish and do away with every religious principal, to make way for materialism, atheism, spiritualism and vice of all kinds. In the year 1865, there will be desecration of holy places. In convents, the flowers of the Church will decompose and the devil will make himself like the King of all hearts. May those in charge of religious communities be on their guard against the people they must receive, for the devil will resort to all his evil tricks to introduce sinners into religious orders, for disorder and the love of carnal pleasures will be spread all over the earth. France, Italy, Spain, and England will be at war. Blood will flow in the streets. Frenchman will fight Frenchman, Italian will fight Italian. A general war will follow which will be appalling. For a time, God will cease to remember France and Italy because the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been forgotten. The wicked will make use of all their evil ways. Men will kill each other, massacre each other even in their homes. At the first blow of His thundering sword, the mountains and all Nature will tremble in terror, for the disorders and crimes of men have pierced the vault of the heavens. Paris will burn and Marseilles will be engulfed. Several cities will be shaken down and swallowed up by earthquakes. People will believe that all is lost. Nothing will be seen but murder, nothing will be heard but the clash of arms and blasphemy. The righteous will suffer greatly. Their prayers, their penances and their tears will rise up to Heaven and all of God's people will beg for forgiveness and mercy and will plead for my help and intercession. And then Jesus Christ, in an act of His justice and His great mercy will command His Angels to have all His enemies put to death. Suddenly, the persecutors of the Church of Jesus Christ and all those given over to sin will perish and the earth will become desert-like. And then peace will be made, and man will be reconciled with God. Jesus Christ will be served, worshipped and glorified. Charity will flourish everywhere. The new kings will be the right arm of the holy Church, which will be strong, humble, pious in It's poor but fervent imitation of the virtues of Jesus Christ. The Gospel will be preached everywhere and mankind will make great progress in its faith, for there will be unity among the workers of Jesus Christ and man will live in fear of God. This peace among men will be short-lived. Twenty-five years of plentiful harvests will make them forget that the sins of men are the cause of all the troubles on this earth.
A forerunner of the Antichrist, with his troops gathered from several nations, will fight against the true Christ, the only Saviour of the world. He will shed much blood and will want to annihilate the worship of God to make himself be looked upon as a God. The earth will be struck by calamities of all kinds (in addition to plague and famine which will be wide-spread). There will be a series of wars until the last war, which will then be fought by the ten Kings of the Antichrist, all of whom will have one and the same plan and will be the only rulers of the world. Before this comes to pass, there will be a kind of false peace in the world. People will think of nothing but amusement. The wicked will give themselves over to all kinds of sin. But the children of the holy Church, the children of my faith, my true followers, they will grow in their love for God and in all the virtues most precious to me. Blessed are the souls humbly guided by the Holy Spirit! I shall fight at their side until they reach a fullness of years. Nature is asking for vengeance because of man, and she trembles with dread at what must happen to the earth stained with crime. Tremble, earth, and you who proclaim yourselves as serving Jesus Christ and who, on the inside, only adore yourselves, tremble for God will hand you over to His enemy, because the holy places are in a state of corruption. Many convents are no longer houses of God, but the grazing-grounds of Asmodeas and his like. It will be during this time that the Antichrist will be born of a Hebrew nun, a false virgin who will communicate with the old serpent, the master of impurity, his father will be B. At birth, he will spew out blasphemy; he will have teeth, in a word, he will be the devil incarnate. He will scream horribly, he will perform wonders, he will feed on nothing but impurity. He will have brothers who, although not devils incarnate like him, will be children of evil. At the age of twelve, they will draw attention upon themselves by the gallant victories they will have won; soon they will each lead armies, aided by the legions of hell. The seasons will be altered, the earth will produce nothing but bad fruit, the stars will lose their regular motion, the moon will only reflect a faint reddish glow. Water and fire will give the earth's globe convulsions and terrible earthquakes which will swallow up mountains, cities, etc... Rome will lose faith and become the seat of the Antichrist. The demons of the air together with the Antichrist will perform great wonders on earth and in the atmosphere, and men will become more and more perverted. God will take care of His faithful servants and men of good will. The Gospel will be preached everywhere, and all peoples of all nations will get to know the truth. I make an urgent appeal to the earth. I call on the true disciples of the living God who reigns in Heaven; I call on the true followers of Christ made man, the only true Saviour of men; I call on my children, the true faithful, those who have given themselves to me so that I may lead them to my divine Son, those whom I carry in my arms, so to speak, those who have lived on my spirit. Finally, I call on the Apostles of the Last Days, the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who have lived in scorn for the world and for themselves, in poverty and in humility, in scorn and in silence, in prayer and in mortification, in chastity and in union with God, in suffering and unknown to the world. It is time they came out and filled the world with light. Go and reveal yourselves to be my cherished children. I am at your side and within you, provided that your faith is the light which shines upon you in these unhappy days. May your zeal make you famished for the glory and the honour of Jesus Christ. Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends. The Church will be in eclipse, the world will be in dismay. But now Enoch and Eli will come, filled with the Spirit of God. They will preach with the might of God, and men of good will will believe in God, and many souls will be comforted. They will make great steps forward through the virtue of the Holy Spirit and will condemn the devilish lapses of the Antichrist. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth! There will be bloody wars and famines, plagues and infectious diseases. It will rain with a fearful hail of animals. There will be thunderstorms which will shake cities, earthquakes which will swallow up countries. Voices will be heard in the air. Men will beat their heads against walls, call for their death, and on another side death will be their torment. Blood will flow on all sides. Who will be the victor if God does not shorten the length of the test? All the blood, the tears and prayers of the righteous, God will relent. Enoch and Eli will be put to death. Pagan Rome will disappear. The fire of Heaven will fall and consume three cities. All the universe will be struck with terror and many will let themselves be lead astray because they have not worshipped the true Christ who lives among them. It is time; the sun is darkening; only faith will survive. Now is the time; the abyss is opening. Here is the King of Kings of darkness, here is the Beast with his subjects, calling himself the Saviour of the world. He will rise proudly into the air to go to Heaven. He will be smothered by the breath of the Archangel Saint Michael. He will fall, and the earth, which will have been in a continuous series of evolutions for three days, will open up its fiery bowels; and he will have plunged for all eternity with all his followers into the everlasting chasms of hell. And then water and fire will purge the earth and consume all the works of men's pride and all will be renewed. God will be served and glorified." Part IV Then the Holy Virgin gave me, also in French, THE RULE OF A NEW RELIGIOUS ORDER. When She had given me the Rule of this new religious Order, the Holy Virgin continued the speech in the same manner3: "If they convert, the stones and rocks will change into wheat, and potatoes will be found sown in the earth. Do you say your prayers properly, my children?" We both replied: "Oh! no, Madame, not so much." "Oh! my children, you must say them morning and evening. When you can do no more, say a Pater and an Ave Maria; and when you have the time to do better, you will say more. Only a few old women go to Mass; in the summer, the rest work all day Sunday and in the winter, when they are at a loose end, they only go to mass to make fun of religion. During Lent, they go to the butcher's like hungry dogs. Have you ever seen any spoilt wheat, my children? We both answered: "Oh no, Madame." The Holy Virgin turned to Maximin, saying: But you, my child, you must have seen some once near le "Coin", with your father. The farmer said to your father: "Come and see how my wheat's gone bad!" You went to see. Your father took two or three ears in his hand, rubbed them, and they fell to dust. Then, on your way back, when you were no more than half an hour away from Corps, your father gave you a piece of bread, and said: "Take it, eat it while you can, my son, for I don't know who will be eating anything next year if the wheat is spoiled like that!" Maximin replied: "It's quite true, Madame, I didn't remember." The Most Holy Virgin brought her speech to an end in French. "AND SO, MY CHILDREN, YOU WILL PASS THIS ON TO ALL MY PEOPLE." The most beautiful Lady crossed the stream, and after two more steps, without turning back towards us, who were following Her (for we were drawn to her by her brilliance and even more by her kindness which elated me, which seemed to melt my heart), she repeated to us: "AND SO, MY CHILDREN, YOU WILL PASS THIS ON TO ALL MY PEOPLE" and so on....http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1846sallette.asp
AKITA JAPAN: October 13, 1973 "My dear daughter, listen well to what I have to say to you. You will inform your superior." After a short silence: "As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres...churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. "The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them" "With courage, speak to your superior. He will know how to encourage each one of you to pray and to accomplish works of reparation." "It is Bishop Ito, who directs your community." And She smiled and then said: "You have still something to ask? Today is the last time that I will speak to you in living voice. From now on you will obey the one sent to you and your superior." "Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."
From the message of La Salette (authenticity long contested but recently confirmed by the research of Michel Corteville in the Vatican archives in 1999): Care needs to be taken not to fall into circular reasoning here: if prophecies criticizing the Church are deemed inauthentic on an a priori basis (which has traditionally been a major argument of opponents of Mélanie Calvat, Garabandal, the visionaries of Medjugorje ...), then it's no surprise if there is a lack of 'reputable' apparitions making such criticism! P.S. Marti, I didn't realize you were thinking of PRECISELY the same passage as I was when I was posting!!!
