Milleniarism, postmillenialism, premillenialism, amillenialism and Catholic Cathechism

Stephen - your book came in the post yesterday & I have begun to read it and I am impressed - I feel very privileged to have you on the forum likewise Mark Mallett whom I have admired for a very long time.

Interesting that I can admire you both yet you appear to be poles apart! But always remember you are blood brothers in Christ

When I finish your book I will comment on it - I have loved it so far ---

 

Try it In Search - just a short ejaculation for inspiration before you write - the saints do this so we all must imitate these wonderful role models.

Spot on! I agree with this eschatological timeline [but with a short period of peace after the chastisements because the world will be in shock from the Father's hand chastising His children and they will be obedient for a time but their descendants will soon forget! <cheeky!>]

 

Garabandal,
Thank you very much. Very kind of you. Yes that is so important, I always try and have the thought that one day we will all have a laugh about these type of discussions in eternity ( God Willing that we make it there of course!). I can honestly say I would be more than happy to accompany Mark on the piano and have a great time making music together. Theological disputes are theological disputes-as it happened between St Peter and St Paul, but first and foremost we are a family on the same journey.
God Bless,
Stephen

 

Thank You.

The Mother of God, in the CHURCH APPROVED private revelation at Fatima, promised that there would be a period of peace on earth. Our Lady doesn't bluff.

Peace is not only possible, God COMMANDS that we live in Peace on this earth NOW. That so many do not live in Peace is the truly abnormal thing, not the opposite. It would be truly interesting to see what would happen if a majority of peoples and nations joined the Catholic Church and stopped sinning mortally (before someone writes this off as improbable, remember, this is what is REQUIRED of us). Things would most definitely be different. Sin and death would still exist, but their effects would be seriously lessened. But God can no more force us to accept the Kingdom (which is present NOW) than He could force those who crucified Him to accept the Kingdom. Free will is still in free play right up until the Second Coming.

insearch and Stephen have made two mistakes: 1. Conflating the Era of Peace with the Second Coming/Last Judgement/Fulfillment of the Kingdom and 2. Pretending that the Church has defined amillenialism as THE DEFINITIVE interpretation.

 

In Ireland we would meet for few pints of Guinness - forget about the piano

 

In the metaphor of a fencing match. A definite strike awarded to insearch.

 

I did. Stop for a little pause and inspiration in charity.
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there is no room for any "era of peace", and especially for 2 chastisements-tribulations ( you still remember the Antichrist and persecution of the church and all other atrocities have to be before the Second Coming) and this mitigated millennialism or postmillennialism( but it is still THE SAME heresy)is against the Church doctrine - that is what all this fight is about ( for the 4th day ). The CCC and the Gospels and the Creed and Our Lord Jesus Christ tell us only about one period of tribulations, not 2.( Good Lord is too good for us)

Back to square one

 

Thanks, Jerry .

I just found the thread you've been copying at the beginning of March - the exact same discussion

 

Can somebody please call 'time out' on this given that the two positions have now been set out pretty exhaustively and there seems no hope of anything except an escalation of tension? It's obvious that Stephen is operating from the perspective that the idea of an 'era of peace' does violence to the proper understanding of the Second Coming and therefore objects to it in very strong terms. Of course there is a certain logic to that which has been made pretty clear. On the other hand Mark (and myself) don't see it as an 'either-or' but as a 'both-and', i.e. a period of peace as preparation for the Parousia, all part of the over-arching redemption work of God which is ultimately unified and inseparable. It's only our limited human perspective which hacks it up into episodes because we are temporal creatures while God is eternal. The prayers 'Come, Lord Jesus' or 'thy Kingdom come' are surely multi-dimensional ones where the same words can operate on several levels at once without cancelling each other out. The whole beauty of prayer and doxology is that they are a language of the heart which bypass categories of 'true vs false' (read Balthasar's essay on Denys the Areopagite in vol. 2 of the Theo-aesthetik for a brilliant exposition of this and its relation to early Christian thought).

The same can be said historically of the quadriga or 'fourfold sense' of Scripture (literal/allegorical/moral/anagogical or eschatological) that was the default position of the Church until the polemics of the 16th century. This is why to some of us this creation of a polar opposition, a zero-sum game between an era of peace and the Second Coming seems unfortunate and unnecessarily reductive. And because this divergence of opinion stems from deeper considerations such as the nature of theological language and how we read doctrinal statements, this isn't a debate that can be settled just by looking to the Denzinger for a knock-out punch!

The other deeper theological tension here concerns the question of whether it is legitimate to use the notion of the development of doctrine in the evaluation of theologians of different eras. As I have said elsewhere, massive theological work was done from the 1920s onwards (not least because of dialogue with Eastern Orthodox scholars who were refugees in the West following the Russian Revolution) in terms of a revival of Patristics and particularly the Greek Fathers which did much to relativize what many now feel to have been an over-reliance on Augustine during the Medieval period. It is clear that both Mark and Joseph Iannuzzi can be located in this theological stream in terms of stressing the importance of the post-Apostolic Fathers as close to the historical roots of Christianity. Stephen on the other hand, finds this alien because he feels that theological precision develops over time, so that later authors in some sense cancel out earlier work and render it invalid.

That these perspectives are difficult to reconcile has become very obvious from this thread. I've said this before, but I really consider that the only reasonable thing to do here is to agree to disagree because the two sides of this discussion just don't think in the same categories.

The one point of detail which would be helpful, however, since you mentioned the two Cardinals, Stephen, would be to say exactly what position they were rejecting (you refer to Mark's theory, but presumably you put the issue to them in different words). And for the record, according to Niels Hvidt, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who said 'Die Vassula hat sehr gut geantwortet' ['Vassula has answered very well']

 

I have 'imbibed like mothers milk' the concept of an era (a period) of peace after a tribulation during the time i have been a member of this forum. I knew nothing of it before. This forum was how i discovered Mark Mallet. What he writes is wonderfully inspiring.
What garabandal writes i quote for i cannot express it any better. "When I read Mark Mallett's posts it sets my heart on fire."

 

did it ever appear to you that he might be wrong?

 

It's no wonder that Our Blessed Mother allways appears to the lowly and humble of heart. I think that is why our Lady of Medjugorje asked for prayer and fasting, because it will only be those who comply with her wishes that will dumbfound the theologians and the learned of these times. One wonders how many of the "learned" actually pray the rosary daily and fast?

 

Peter, I congratulate you on defining so eloquently the framework here. I have taken eight years, hundreds of writings, and my book to carefully explain to readers the nuances, heresies, pitfalls, etc. that have followed this enigmatic passage for the entire history of the Church. However, there should not be the tension on this issue of a triumphant era of peace, sanctity, etc. such as there is since the Church is open to the discussion. Once again:

Padre Martino Penasa spoke to Msgr. S. Garofalo (Consultant to the Congregation for the Cause of Saints) on the scriptural foundation of an historic and universal era of peace, as opposed to millenarianism. Msgr. suggested that the matter be posed directly to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Fr. Martino thus posed the question: “È imminente una nuova era di vita cristiana?” (“Is a new era of Christian life imminent?”). The Prefect at that time, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger replied, “La questione è ancora aperta alla libera discussione, giacchè la Santa Sede non si è ancora pronunciata in modo definitivo”:

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The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard. —Il Segno del Soprannauturale, Udine, Italia, n. 30, p. 10, Ott. 1990; Fr. Martino Penasa presented this question of a “millenary reign” to Cardinal Ratzinger​

 

Peter,
In answer to your question, I asked: have the millennium theories of the early Fathers been rejected completely in reference to Rev 20 as an earthly temporal era of peace? Cardinal Prospero Grech " The millennium was never approved by the Fathers as an earthly period of peace, and Joachim de Flora was condemned for his “period of the Spirit”
Same question to Cardinal Karl Josef Becker: " we have to maintain that we can never accept millennial theories."
Case solved.For those who dont know, these two Cardinals are two of the most eminent professors of theology in the Vatican. They have worked in the CDF for years and years .Both were made cardinals in theri 80's in recongnition of their theological prowess.Cardinal Becker has been at the forefront of doctrinal discussions with the SSPX and was trusted greatly by Benedict XVI

 

I couldn't agree more.

I would also point out that approved private revelation only confirms what Scripture and Tradition clearly indicate: there will be an Era of Peace. It is not conditional (some prophecies are, this one is not).

Two of the most important APPROVED (I can't stress that word enough, as we know that approved private revelation adds nothing to the deposit of faith which is not already there, if not made explicit yet) private revelations in this regard are the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima where a period of peace was promised to the world, and the approved apparition of Our Lady of All Nations, where the promise of Peace was also recorded.

 

Frankly that is so unbelievably vague. We dont know the context of what Ratzinger was asked in the slightest or the general discussion, and I also have to say a one sentence answer from Cardinal ratzinger doesnt say much about his attitude to it does it! Do you really think that would pass as evidence on its own in a court of law? I mean a question "is a new era of christian life imminent"? You might as well ask him are french fries better with tomato sauce or brown sauce? "The Holy See has made no pronouncement in this regard"

 

Stephen,

The problem in this discussion, including our private emails, is that your response to the points of debate is to merely move on with another list. The other day, I posted three quotes that simply cannot refer to eternity as you say (and the fourth would be your remarkable interpretation that the "period of peace" refers to eternity). I would appreciate answers to my questions for once. From yesterday's post:

Pope Benedict XVI called the youth to be “prophets of this new age” that is coming, he said to them:

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Empowered by the Spirit, and drawing upon faith’s rich vision, a new generation of Christians is being called to help build a world in which God’s gift of life is welcomed, respected and cherished—not rejected, feared as a threat, and destroyed. A new age in which love is not greedy or self-seeking, but pure, faithful and genuinely free, open to others, respectful of their dignity, seeking their good, radiating joy and beauty. A new age in which hope liberates us from the shallowness, apathy, and self-absorption which deaden our souls and poison our relationships. Dear young friends, the Lord is asking you to be prophets of this new age… —POPE BENEDICT XVI, Homily, World Youth Day, Sydney, Australia, July 20th, 2008​

How could this be a reference to Heaven if we are going to have to “help build a world in which God’s gift of life is welcomed.” I was under the impression that, in Heaven, the gift of life was already welcomed.

In 1957, Pope Pius XII in his Urbi et Orbi Easter address that you quote in your book, he says:

But even this night in the world shows clear signs of a dawn that will come, of a new day receiving the kiss of a new and more resplendent sun… A new resurrection of Jesus is necessary: a true resurrection, which admits no more lordship of death… In individuals, Christ must destroy the night of mortal sin with the dawn of grace regained. In families, the night of indifference and coolness must give way to the sun of love. In factories, in cities, in nations, in lands of misunderstanding and hatred the night must grow bright as the day, nox sicut dies illuminabitur, and strife will cease and there will be peace. —The Tablet, April 27th, 1957 as cited in Heralds of the Second Coming by Stephen Walford, p. 218-219​

So what if there is to be no “era of peace” and this refers to the state of Heaven? Then Catholics may find it strange that there will be “factories” in eternity. What is this new dawn the Pope sees coming?

Oh! when in every city and village the law of the Lord is faithfully observed, when respect is shown for sacred things, when the Sacraments are frequented, and the ordinances of Christian life fulfilled, there will certainly be no more need for us to labor further to see all things restored in Christ… And then? Then, at last, it will be clear to all that the Church, such as it was instituted by Christ, must enjoy full and entire liberty and independence from all foreign dominion… All this, Venerable Brethren, We believe and expect with unshakable faith. —POPE PIUS X, E Supremi, Encyclical “On the Restoration of All Things”, n.14, 6-7​

He is referring to a time of peace and liberty “when the Sacraments are frequented.” How could this be heaven where the sacramental order will have ceased?

What, Stephen, are these popes referring to if not what the Theological Commission concluded, that "Such an occurrence is not excluded, is not impossible, it is not all certain that there will not be a prolonged period of triumphant Christianity before the end?"

I want to hear your answers. But I will say that a hundred years of saintly mystics and the recovered theology of the Apostolic Fathers have already answered....

 

Context: "the scriptural foundation of an historic and universal era of peace"

Question: "Is a new era of Christian life imminent?”

Answer: "The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard."

What part of this don't you understand again?

 

Mark,
sorry but you have been found out these past days. I dont know if you saw the two large posts I addressed to you a page or two back with a list of things which point out your millennialist theology. Have a good look at it. I dont need to explain my beliefs because they are 100% in line with the Magisterium. Not only did cardinals Grech and Becker rule your theory out, but Professor Norris (of the International theological commission-which for the record does not speak for the magisterium) said (in endorsing my book) I avoided millenarism. Listen Mark to what the experts are saying.

 

So you don't need to answer my questions? Why do I need to answer yours when every single thing I've taught has been accompanied by Magisterial statements, papal quotes, the Catechism and Church Fathers? I'm sincerely confused. Besides, I have answered your questions in 760 writings and my book. This is really getting silly.....