Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

A man stuck in the 1960s liturgical time warp.

God save us from Father Trendy's who constantly fiddle with the Liturgy.

 

As I understand it, Archbishop Lefebvre was not excommunicated ipso facto. Disobedience and excommunication are separate matters. A simple act of disobedience does not trigger ipso facto excommunication.
Disobedience can be justified, in emergency cases. This is the question here, whether Lefebvre's disobedience was justified due to a state of emergency or not.
He and his Bishops were not validly excommunicated. When Pope Benedict clarified and rectified that, Lefebvre had already passed on, so Lefebvre himself was not formally rehabilitated.
The act of excommunication of Lefebvre and his Bishops was carried out by St. John Paul II. I truly admire this holy Pope, a wonderful Saint, a man of great character and strength and charisma. As I understand it, he undertook (and was successful in) keeping the Barque of St. Peter in one piece, keeping the factions of traditionalists and modernists united. A heroic man, a true saint, JP II, in my opinion.
That said, if you read Windswept House for example, it becomes clear that St JP II was not always able to act as he wished, he had to compromise, he sometimes was compromised by the dark force in the Vatican. We see this, for example, in the act of consecration of Russia to the Immaculata, where Russia was not explicitly mentioned, even though St JP II had wanted to do just that.
About the excommunication of Lefebvre, I don't know who or what really was the driving force behind it. I find it difficult to imagine this truly came from St JP II, that he wasn't pressured in some form.
Was there a state of emergency to protect the Traditional Latin Mass, that is the question. Well, I heard, when Lefebvre felt his time was nearing the end, he wanted to appoint Holy Bishops to ensure the continuation of the SSPX. He sought JP II's approval and was initially receiving favorable responses from JP II (so I heard), then the consecration of bishops was delayed and delayed by Rome. I heard that modernist and powerful forces in the Vatican (not really JP II himself) had the desire to extinguish the SSPX. So, in order for the approved SSPX to be able to continue, Lefebvre had to eventually consecrate bishops without permission. This was an act of disobedience, in a true state of emergency in my opinion. I have no proof for any of this, only heard it by way of rumor. It may or may not be true.
That said, there are so many modernist holy orders and priests living in grave disobedience to the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church, why excommunicate Archbishop Lefebvre, who had founded the SSPX with the explicit permission of the Holy Father?
I used to be very skeptical about the SSPX, for that very reason, that Lefebvre's act of disobedience made me feel uneasy. I used to stick strictly to FSSP and diocesan Latin Mass, alongside reverent Novus Ordo Masses.
Then, a year ago, when we had to make a schooling decision for our son, we joined an SSPX parish with a primary school because we could not find a truly Catholic Novus Ordo school. We moved town, there is no FSSP here, no diocesan Latin Mass either. I joined an SSPX parish but initially remained skeptical of the SSPX.
Now, the developments in Holy Catholic Church (as in the world) have moved on at lightning speed, and we are facing previously unheard of destruction from within. With the Ecclesia Dei groups now under attack, the SSPX appears to be one of the few Catholic groups left that are truly in a position to defend the Traditional Latin Mass and the traditional teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.
So I think the passing of time has shown that Archbishop Lefebvre was right. Moreover, he was perhaps akin to a prophet, because apparently he saw all this coming and prepared the SSPX as a bulwark against the heresy of modernism and to preserve the liturgy and teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.
I don't really know what the truth is or what a good decision is. The argument 'safe in the barque of Peter' makes sense to me, too.
Ultimately, God knows I am where I am because of schooling my son, God knows. We now live in a small town. When I went back to the city we came from, I thought it was so awful, things have changed so dramatically in just one year. Everyone in the city is wearing a mask.
Here, our neighbors are Christians. These days, we are building a gate together.
On another note, a video was posted earlier somewhere on this forum, with a Holy Priest basically saying that the devil is now overplaying his hand. He is making his presence known in the world through draconian measures, and the same may be said of our Holy Church.
Hopefully the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart will come soon.
God bless!

 

That is true.

 

I think this is really one of the key points.

 

Well, regarding the SSPX. They are not canonically connected to anyone or anything in the Catholic Church. The local Bishop has not given them permission to celebrate Masses. As such, all of their Masses are illicit. To me, that is an unacceptable choice of a place to be. I do not need to defend my choice.

 

If the Church goes ahead and changes the words of consecration, they may be among the few places to go to receive the body of Christ.

 

A friend sent this:

 

Thank you for posting, Byron.

 

God bless you in your sincere effort to keep the Faith and pass it on to your son. May the good God find a way to give you clarity about your decision to make SSPX your regular duty before God to keep Holy the Sabbath Day.

I attend the FSSP since the lock down where we are treated like Roman Catholics always were treated, especially being able to receive Holy Eucharist on the tongue administered by a Priest. The people are different (Christian), unlike the traffic warden types who boss everyone around in the Novus Ordo parishes. The Priests in those parishes in this town are good holy men, but the wardens are like salt on a wound. Whereas at the Latin Mass they are so polite and kind and charitable, it makes me feel respected and welcome and not intimidated in any way, God bless them.

I can truly say Latin Mass attendees remind me of what we hear in Holy Scripture, "see how they love one another," besides I love the singing and chanting.

Is it not relevant that between Bishops and Arch Bishops we should not be judging whither they are obedient of not. They are equals in the chain of command, so surely they would not be held to the same standards as us lay folk. Equals (Bishops) are not judged in the same way as subordinates (lay folks). IMHO

The negotiations between the Curia in Rome and the SSPX was apparently frustrated by whoever represented the Holy Father putting a spanner in the works, and may have been feeding a version of the truth to the Pope in the time of Saint John Paul II that did not reflect the doctrinal points brought forward by SSPX representative.

Saint John Paull II did eventually excommunicate Archbishop Lefebvre, but it was later lifted, thank God. Having watched the video about the life of this Archbishop; he did come across as a man who had a clear perspective on the future and what was going to happen if the TLM was binned, so he fought to keep it alive. He seemed a Holy Man, reminded me of Fulton Sheen to be honest in his own way. God help him, God help all SSPX, and FSSP and all those who cherish the TLM.

Ending the Latin Mass is what will bring in the "Abomination of Desolation" spoken of in Daniel, and also Saint Peter when he said, "Let the reader understand," To be honest I could never figure that one out, but it is there in scripture.

The English form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass HAS already been changed. It was coming in since before Pope Francis was elected. I have mentioned on a few occasions on the forum how the Sacrifice of Atonement has been renamed the Sacrifice of Reconciliation. Reconciliation is not atonement, and I can't articulate why this is a very serious change. It infers Jesus did not atone for our sins on Calvary as we were taught at school, it infers that Jesus reconciled us to God and is what the protestants believe, which is why they don't believe in confession.

Reconciliation is what we aim to do when we seek absolution in Confession. It is made possible through the Atonement which Jesus Christ made for our sins when He was tortured and Crucified on Calvary for our sins.

And God accepted Jesus Sacrifice of Atonement, because Jesus rose from the dead, then He instructed His Apostles and gave them authority to forgive sin or retain them. In order to believe the authority of absolution and reconciliation, it is necessary to believe Jesus rose from the dead, since this power of authority was made known after the Resurrection.

Sorry, I have waffled a lot, trying to make clear what has been on my mind for some years now about the change in the English version of the Mass.

 

The Mass still atones for us to the Father regardless. The Mass is valid. No matter what it is called. It is still the unbloody immolation of Jesus Christ.

 

I hope and pray that you are correct in this. In the two or three years leading up to this change of word being introduced at Holy Mass, I had inner promptings that were something to do with "between the Vestibule and Altar," something very disturbing was going to happen. Those inner promptings only eased after this change of word (atonement to reconciliation)became known.

I remember going to one of the Priests locally and asking him, should we be running for the hills as it says in scripture. He was puzzled. I remain puzzled. But when you think of it, this change was and is all part of the deception we are being fed. And I don't even know or understand why.

Someone who knows what they are talking about will eventually articulate what I feel but can't express, please God.

In any event I feel it is necessary to Stay with the Pope, unless God Himself comes to me and tells me otherwise. God help and preserve us all.

 

I totally agree with your last paragraph. The Lord searches our hearts and He will
shepherd us. Two wrongs don’t make a right in Catholic teaching. They never have. I do agree with you that something might be brewing and if you look at Byron’s post above, the FSSP is asking for Novena prayers for the Church and prayers for the Pope. I’m in.

 

I would guess that if events had proven otherwise he would have been declared a saint by now.

However I am still troubled by the matter of his obedience. Obedience is no small thing to any Catholic. It is a cause of concern.

 

I've had a bad day today. My beloved little brother who has been away from the faith for years, who I pray for every single day and love dearly, laughed at me today before angrily calling me rude and condescending for trying to explain to him the organization BLM is not really about helping blacks and there is an agenda hiding behind the only allowed mainstream narrative. I was stunned into silence and ended up crying because he's never been angry at me before. Trying to explain to him humbly and kindly that I was only trying to share more of the story and help dig up the truth because I care about him was so....difficult...I kept stuttering and going around in circles. I felt so completely at a loss. How do you share the truth with someone who doesn't care what the truth is? It hurts terribly, and I feel so inadequate.

So I was already wrestling with these feelings, my eyes stinging from crying so much today, when I saw the video about the FSSP being called to Rome soon and the rumours of further suppression and dismantling. I feel so broken, sad and betrayed. I've felt that way for a while, knowing what's probably coming. There's been turmoil within, hearing all the viewpoints on "true magisterium" and the SSPX and pope vs. antipope, as I call out to the Holy Spirit to help me weed through the chaos and hear the small, still voice of Truth. It's getting harder to hear, which is understandable out in the world...but here in our own Catholic circles? The waters are getting very muddied, and it's not just Pope Francis doing it.

I prayed, and I read through all the comments under that video. I opened my mind and truly considered every person's viewpoint, while asking the Holy Spirit to help me discern.

What I saw was a lot of people supporting the SSPX. I saw arguments being made against obedience to what is unjust. I saw it said we have a right to the TLM, and that we must go to the SSPX or underground if we want to keep that right (if FSSP is taken from us). I saw the FSSP disagreed with and even scorned for encouraging people to not leave the Holy Father. I saw sadness and confusion, and a very small handful expressing faith that God will save us if we only hold fast and wait for Him.

I paused. Some thoughts came into my mind... First, of the many people who came before us who broke with the pope over abuses and what they saw as errors. Second, of the many times in history when those beloved by God were allowed to go into terrible trials (exile, plagues, holocaust, communism, etc.). And third, of the terrible passion Christ Himself endured, and His particular response throughout.

In all these scenarios, where did righteous indignation play a role, and where did it not? How about a demand for what is "rightfully ours"? Was such an attitude helpful in these situations? In times of Communism and other oppression, yes, Mass was sometimes achieved underground...under risk of death and with no disobedience of their pope (so our situation doesn't really compare with theirs). How about humility, making oneself very, very small and not setting up ones own opinions over those God placed over them? Jesus did that. Should we? I saw humility mentioned one time in the comments. It went something like this: "Will the FSSP have the humility to go their own way like the SSPX, or will they pridefully cling to their stance of obedience to the pope and go to their downfall?" If that's not diabolical disorientation, I don't know what is. I don't know if I've ever heard a more backwards statement in my life. It's troubling.

Many here have made the valiant claim that we must be ready to go to our passion with Christ. I wonder who here has considered that maybe, as in the times of exile and oppression, God is allowing us to be deprived of what we believe to be rightfully ours and brings us so much joy and comfort---the TLM? We love it because it is beautiful and True and Good and offers fitting worship to God. And so we conclude that it is wrong to take it from us. But will we argue that to God? If we were Abraham, would we have argued that no one could make us kill our beloved son, because that would be unjust and because he was promised and given to us by God Himself? What if this is our Abraham moment? Who's going to miss the test of faith because they are so sure they are clinging to what is good? Can it not be a test from God because it comes from the "awful" Pope Francis? Ah, but if you know your spiritual history, you know that God works through anyone He pleases, good or bad.

The last image that came into my mind that bowled me over and made me cry....was Jesus in the tabernacle...in a Novus Ordo parish. We are too good for that weak, watered down Novus Ordo Mass, right? It would be too awful to take our kids back there amongst all those wishy washy Catholics and more mundane liturgy, so we'll disobey and go to the SSPX instead, so we can have what we deserve...and give God what He deserves, right? Nevermind that Jesus Himself, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, doesn't consider Himself too good to sit in those ugly tabernacles and on those plain altars... WE are too good to return to those churches.

 

This is exactly the kind of thinking that the Holy Father uses to justify his attack on the old mass. It tends to proves Pope Francis right and justify his position.

The enemies of the Old Mass can point to this as an example of how right they are to ban the old Mass.

 

The Holy Spirit is guiding you in this. Be obedient to Peter.

'You are Peter and what you bind on Earth will be considered bound in heaven'.

 

The best way to persuade people of the Truth is through what you are, rather than what you say.